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Post by Zealote on Jan 19, 2009 17:37:03 GMT -5
I heard that an evil bard has been teaching the monsters some skills in observation. I'm not sure they'll ever be able to see someone in the 60's without a lot of epic levels, or epic red wizard items though. Just wait til the evil chest guardians go in. They will randomly pop out of chests when you open them and attack. Spot=100, Listen=100, True Seeing will be cast on them. There will be no hiding from them!! ;D Dont forget what I told you about haste! No running either!
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thegnomeherder
Senior Member
Bhaal, the Lord of Gettin' sum
Posts: 356
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Post by thegnomeherder on Jan 19, 2009 17:39:54 GMT -5
Well, that's a separate problem; nobody wants to play the good guy. Solve that, and I'll be really impressed Actually its Too many people wanna be good and too many wanna be evil - theres nobody inbetween! I was in an event today where the group tried to be so "good" that they ended up contradicting their own actions and it turned into a conversation debating how good everyone is while the creatures just stared at us.
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Post by DM Sir Carnifex on Jan 19, 2009 17:41:39 GMT -5
haar carn! well the reason you get all the duff seconds is because their main toon is in the thieve's guild while the player's alt is using his fist toon to funnel information to him about when the fist are going to bust them ;-) no really why not just give the fist weekly pay? they do a service they should get paid. of course then you'd have to disable players from having ALTs in other guilds otherwise they'd just mule all that gold they acquired from working for the fist to their ALT in the theive's guild ;P hehehe Currently, the Flaming Fist receives more benefits than any other guild, including weekly pay. Even that hasn't helped much in recruiting. However, what may help is when I start entering as a DM and start announcing Flaming Fist ONLY events. And I do intend to do that.
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Post by DM Sir Carnifex on Jan 19, 2009 17:43:52 GMT -5
Well, that's a separate problem; nobody wants to play the good guy. Solve that, and I'll be really impressed Well, one reason I don't play a sneaky, evil, and plotting PC that has joined an evil guild is that I don't see the fun in playing a BAD guy when there is nobody to oppose.
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Post by Zealote on Jan 19, 2009 17:46:15 GMT -5
haar carn! well the reason you get all the duff seconds is because their main toon is in the thieve's guild while the player's alt is using his fist toon to funnel information to him about when the fist are going to bust them ;-) no really why not just give the fist weekly pay? they do a service they should get paid. of course then you'd have to disable players from having ALTs in other guilds otherwise they'd just mule all that gold they acquired from working for the fist to their ALT in the theive's guild ;P hehehe Currently, the Flaming Fist receives more benefits than any other guild, including weekly pay. Even that hasn't helped much in recruiting. However, what may help is when I start entering as a DM and start announcing Flaming Fist ONLY events. And I do intend to do that. Please do. Ice use to run something like that and thats how Valek and Justin started. FF event only. Hunting thieves and murderes!
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Post by highwayman on Jan 19, 2009 18:45:48 GMT -5
Let see how this end up ... but as far as I see it as a pure rogue / assassin right now my ability to pvp is really limited with everyone listening / spotting me and to the others I have to wait for a pvp consent which make my ambush ability useless. I have pvped against a lot of players recently and equal level it's not easy at all to win with my build. Where I should be able to use stoneskin, Greater Heroism and all the nice scrolls to help myself they aren't available to merchants. Rogues and Bard's can use UMD but we are really restricted at the moment on that side. As I experienced today while partying, as long as the other creature or pc is not immune to being flat footed, feint is a rogues best friend.
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Post by hnefi on Jan 19, 2009 18:52:43 GMT -5
Yeah, Feint is great. It doesn't really scale to higher levels though, because of the check; to succeed, the feinter rolls 1d20+bluff vs a DC of the opponents BAB+spot. Against a non-spotter, the feinter will usually succeed; but then, he could probably have used HiPS instead. Against a high-level melee spotter, the check becomes impossible once the opponent has a BAB of 20 or more.
But against bards - who get listen, but not spot, as a class skill - it's awesome. Of course, at epic levels, a bard will obliterate a rogue with his Hymn of Requiem, but whatever.
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Post by highwayman on Jan 19, 2009 18:57:26 GMT -5
Yeah, Feint is great. It doesn't really scale to higher levels though, because of the check; to succeed, the feinter rolls 1d20+bluff vs a DC of the opponents BAB+spot. Against a non-spotter, the feinter will usually succeed; but then, he could probably have used HiPS instead. Against a high-level melee spotter, the check becomes impossible once the opponent has a BAB of 20 or more. But against bards - who get listen, but not spot, as a class skill - it's awesome. Of course, at epic levels, a bard will obliterate a rogue with his Hymn of Requiem, but whatever. That blows then, wasn't sure of the mechanics behind it, but was pretty impressed when I saw that sneak attacks were being applied when faced head on(no flanking).
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Post by DEV Akavit on Jan 19, 2009 19:36:06 GMT -5
I would like to point out that at least half the PC's who were able to spot Meldor's PC were HIPS/rogue builds. The others were druids or monks with good wisdom scores. This means that the primary danger to a HIPS user is.......another HIPS user. Guess who whipped Ujio in PvP? Belados did and he is......another HIPS user.
Most of the spot/listen items out there are the special rogue items that Ice built so they don't really count at the moment as they are not available to the general population.
There is no need to worry about HIPS being negated by the addition of a few items that add spot and listen. As it is, only a tiny fraction of the PC's out there have invested (or even have the option to) enough skill points in spot or listen to take advantage of the upcoming items. Just be aware that every PC has some weakness and there is nothing unusual about epic druids or rangers seeing a sneaking rogue. After all, if a HIPS user could walk past such a PC without being seen then they would be invincible. While in stealth mode it is begging for trouble anyway to walk right up to the PC that one is attempting to hide from unless actually attacking.
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Post by adzling on Jan 19, 2009 20:31:57 GMT -5
imho all your comments are on point akavit.
it's a hard balance to strike with stealth in nwn2 due to the way it was implemented.
as a hipster player my concern is not being able to be spotted by druids and bards when they are looking its the passive spotting and spotting by non-spotters that makes me worry about ending up gimped.
but you guys seem very "on it" when it comes to balance issues so as long as your open to changing things if they get out of whack it's all good.
this is a good debate to have as it exposes the nuances of the game mechanics which happen to be very important with stealth due to the whacked implementation.
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Post by Erulaan D'Anhoor on Jan 19, 2009 21:08:24 GMT -5
Negative Karma to you Adzling!
JK
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Post by hnefi on Jan 20, 2009 4:32:27 GMT -5
Most of the spot/listen items out there are the special rogue items that Ice built so they don't really count at the moment as they are not available to the general population. I'm afraid I don't quite see the logic in that. The shop where most of these items can be bought is open to everyone, and can be reached by anyone on the surface before they meet their first enemy. That this shop sells class-restricted equipment is a minor issue; bards, being the optimal detectors, get UMD, so adding non-restricted versions of the rather large selection of detection equipment that already exists wouldn't change balance very much. What would change balance would be adding detection items that complement the ones already existing, thereby pushing the max equippable detection bonuses higher, which is something I'm against given the equipment I've seen.
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Post by Tiefling on Jan 20, 2009 5:47:32 GMT -5
Regarding Feint: Click here. I like Feint, even though my Nebbie is never going to be able to sneak attack those undead and construct.
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Post by adzling on Jan 20, 2009 9:37:26 GMT -5
with epic precision she could...
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Post by caveman282 on Jan 20, 2009 9:47:58 GMT -5
*snores* Topic getting old. Devs are doing items for a lot of the factions. Lets just see what happens.
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