meldor
Senior Member
QC Team
Posts: 369
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Post by meldor on Jan 19, 2009 14:02:40 GMT -5
Okie I can name you peoples who saw Chloe hidden recently.. Chezy something Broham1 character Rina Ujio Rai Azrael Hakeem And there are probably more... this was in the last 5 days. And here is why you were seen by all of these: Rina - Druid with prolly max spot and listen and wis score of prolly 30+ because druids get a buff that adds over 10+ wis called owls insight. Dont try and hide from a druid Ujio- Epic monk with max spot and listinm sure Rai- Not lvl 20 stealther but is elf with active search who maxes spot/listen Azrael- Druid with prolly max spot and listen and wis score of prolly 30+ because druids get a buff that adds over 10+ wis called owls insight. Dont try and hide from a druid Hakeem- Epic lvl stealther ?? Mainly wanted to point out your tring to hide from 2 druids who both have +30 wis score which adds to the spot/listen checks and who have maxed spot/listen as its a class skill. Druids have the best spot and listen of any class. So this is 75% of my character to be able to hide and move silently.. I don't cast spells, I can't buff myself and I can't use magic dmg and pet etc.. it shouldnt be easy for anyone to spot / listen me and right now mostly everyone high lvl does. Add to that druid / wizard / cleric got spells to be immune to critical hits... what is left to a pure rogue / assassin ?
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Post by broham2 on Jan 19, 2009 14:07:37 GMT -5
And here is why you were seen by all of these: Rina - Druid with prolly max spot and listen and wis score of prolly 30+ because druids get a buff that adds over 10+ wis called owls insight. Dont try and hide from a druid Ujio- Epic monk with max spot and listinm sure Rai- Not lvl 20 stealther but is elf with active search who maxes spot/listen Azrael- Druid with prolly max spot and listen and wis score of prolly 30+ because druids get a buff that adds over 10+ wis called owls insight. Dont try and hide from a druid Hakeem- Epic lvl stealther ?? Mainly wanted to point out your tring to hide from 2 druids who both have +30 wis score which adds to the spot/listen checks and who have maxed spot/listen as its a class skill. Druids have the best spot and listen of any class. So this is 75% of my character to be able to hide and move silently.. I don't cast spells, I can't buff myself and I can't use magic dmg and pet etc.. it shouldnt be easy for anyone to spot / listen me and right now mostly everyone high lvl does. Add to that druid / wizard / cleric got spells to be immune to critical hits... what is left to a pure rogue / assassin ? Yeah I agree Meldor, I do. It does suck, but its part of the game for now. Like I've said before, I wish I could debuff casters with a successful spot/listen check! It sucks to have a oft-maxed stat kill your one benefit, but thats the way it works right now.... I dont want to see a ton of spot/listen gear either.. aside from perhaps guild items for the Fist. Right now the Fist couldnt catch any of us if they tried (and yes that is a challenge, lol).
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Post by Zealote on Jan 19, 2009 14:07:53 GMT -5
I agree with on that adzling. The listen check makes you ''see'' the hidden character, which is ridiculous. Instead, it should make you see a shadow for a few seconds, just to know the location of the hidden character.
About the spotters meldor, the ones you gave as example are high lvl characters, as Broham said. And I doubt they can see you right away if you use hips. But if you stand right next to them, do not expect to remain unseen. Stealth is not invisibility. All we need is one bad roll and your cover is blown. But I should also add that when you chose to ''sacrifice'' skills and feats to be stealthier instead of good ac or good combat feats, you wont hurt your rogue. The stealth skills and feats give the rogue power, not weakness. Improves your damage. On the other hand, when you chose to ''sacrifice'' something to get scout skill points and feats, you gain nothing more than defense. The scout skills and feats doesnt give any bonus dmg, AKA sneak attacks, like the stealth skills and feats. So when you put point on stealth you become more powerfull as a rogue on PvP or anything like that. When you spend points on scout skills or feats, the lvl of sacrifice remains the same, but you do not get offensive bonus. It is merely defensive. You wont become more powerfull in combat, different than a rogue. Sop the skills and feats shouldnt be compared as the same, because the rogue gains much more when chooses to get stealth instead of ac and other combat feats. But the scout/spotter will get to see you. That is all. He wont be able to sneak you for 200 dmg like the stealth skills give you. The stealth can be used to avoid combat as much as to engage, while the scout skills can only be used to avoid combat, by being alert. They wont give you any offensive advantage. Imho, the scout skills and feats are much more like a sacrifice than the stealth skill/feats. Hipsters shouldnt complain about being seen, as much as a scout shouldnt complain about being sneaked to death in 2 hits.
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Post by adzling on Jan 19, 2009 14:19:56 GMT -5
well zealote a spotter is able to engage in combat as a result of bugsidian's listen implementation (and this the one most often used do to the spells previously discussed) so the do gain a combat advantage from listen skills. when taken together with denying your target their most powerful combat power it does pretty much mean druid=crippled stealther.
this is why imho stealthers should retain a significant equipment advantage over spotters but ESPECIALLY listeners. I cannot comment on the surface stores but ALL the items being sold in the UD skew towards giving advantage to hide vs. advantage to MS. I am not sure why the devs chose to do this but those items should give parity advantage to hide AND MS. Instead it's often +2 hide +1 ms. makes no sense to me.
another thing to consider about bugsidian's borked stealth implementation is that those checks are being made WAAAY to frequently. It should be like every minute if your standing still not every round. Per my math in other thread this makes it almost impossible for a stealther against spotter to succeed for anything more than one or two rounds IF THAT.
A spotter who is ON PAR with a stealther has a 75% chance to spot the stealther EACH ROUND. Even if it was 50/50 this would be way better.
The net IG result is that a stealther without a +15 or +20 equipment advantage will be spotted almost instantly when put up against a spotter with equivalent skill. Nevermind those blasted druids with owl's insight lasting all farking day. Stealther may as well just avoid all druid, bards and wizards that approach anything close to their level as a properly built one will always spot the stealther absent significant MS equipment advantage. If stealthers had access to "greater cat's grace" everything would even out, mostly....
gah! *shakes fist again*
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Post by Forumlord of Talos on Jan 19, 2009 14:20:23 GMT -5
Haha
This is better then HIPS. Apparently Rina has fooled the world into thinking she is a druid.
What a perfect disguise. Who needs HIPS!!!
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meldor
Senior Member
QC Team
Posts: 369
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Post by meldor on Jan 19, 2009 14:36:11 GMT -5
I agree with on that adzling. The listen check makes you ''see'' the hidden character, which is ridiculous. Instead, it should make you see a shadow for a few seconds, just to know the location of the hidden character. About the spotters meldor, the ones you gave as example are high lvl characters, as Broham said. And I doubt they can see you right away if you use hips. But if you stand right next to them, do not expect to remain unseen. Stealth is not invisibility. All we need is one bad roll and your cover is blown. But I should also add that when you chose to ''sacrifice'' skills and feats to be stealthier instead of good ac or good combat feats, you wont hurt your rogue. The stealth skills and feats give the rogue power, not weakness. Improves your damage. On the other hand, when you chose to ''sacrifice'' something to get scout skill points and feats, you gain nothing more than defense. The scout skills and feats doesnt give any bonus dmg, AKA sneak attacks, like the stealth skills and feats. So when you put point on stealth you become more powerfull as a rogue on PvP or anything like that. When you spend points on scout skills or feats, the lvl of sacrifice remains the same, but you do not get offensive bonus. It is merely defensive. You wont become more powerfull in combat, different than a rogue. Sop the skills and feats shouldnt be compared as the same, because the rogue gains much more when chooses to get stealth instead of ac and other combat feats. But the scout/spotter will get to see you. That is all. He wont be able to sneak you for 200 dmg like the stealth skills give you. The stealth can be used to avoid combat as much as to engage, while the scout skills can only be used to avoid combat, by being alert. They wont give you any offensive advantage. Imho, the scout skills and feats are much more like a sacrifice than the stealth skill/feats. Hipsters shouldnt complain about being seen, as much as a scout shouldnt complain about being sneaked to death in 2 hits. Hide and MS skills is far to be enough to not be seen, where I lose is that I have to use gears to add to my Hide / MS where I could get better AC gears and Resistance gears instead.. remember that even if you are hips once you attack you are vulnerable for another 6 sec if your defense is low you mostly dead..
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Post by DM Sir Carnifex on Jan 19, 2009 14:46:52 GMT -5
People keep mentioning spells that help listen/spot. As it is, the few people who really DO need to be able to spot HIPS users are completely unable to do it (the Fist). I can probably count on ZERO hands the number of times that the law actually could find a HIPS user because:
1. They are generally warriors and do not have spot and listen as class skills.
2. They do not have all the special gear available to help them listen.
3. They do not have spells available to help.
Honestly, why should a person HAVE to have magical means of detecting a person who is HIDING (not invisible). As I said before, if a person really wants to hide, he can stay behind trees, bushes, rocks, a hill, a building. Having HIPS does not mean that you can walk directly behind a person on a road and avoid being spotted.
Please people, HIPS is abused as it is (especially with it being available at level 1 SD) and is a MAJOR advantage. All the complaining about it because some HIGH level SPECIALIZED PCs can spot your character is getting old. Really old.
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Post by caveman282 on Jan 19, 2009 14:55:58 GMT -5
Haha This is better then HIPS. Apparently Rina has fooled the world into thinking she is a druid. What a perfect disguise. Who needs HIPS!!! haha well i dont think ive played with rina I was just going off what I thought you told me but maybe I misunderstood. On topic note though I think the Rogue/Asn and Zhent guild should have access to nice HD/MS items while the Fist and Nature guild (rangers are skilled trackers) Have access to nice Spot / Listen gear.
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Post by Zealote on Jan 19, 2009 15:03:49 GMT -5
I agree with on that adzling. The listen check makes you ''see'' the hidden character, which is ridiculous. Instead, it should make you see a shadow for a few seconds, just to know the location of the hidden character. About the spotters meldor, the ones you gave as example are high lvl characters, as Broham said. And I doubt they can see you right away if you use hips. But if you stand right next to them, do not expect to remain unseen. Stealth is not invisibility. All we need is one bad roll and your cover is blown. But I should also add that when you chose to ''sacrifice'' skills and feats to be stealthier instead of good ac or good combat feats, you wont hurt your rogue. The stealth skills and feats give the rogue power, not weakness. Improves your damage. On the other hand, when you chose to ''sacrifice'' something to get scout skill points and feats, you gain nothing more than defense. The scout skills and feats doesnt give any bonus dmg, AKA sneak attacks, like the stealth skills and feats. So when you put point on stealth you become more powerfull as a rogue on PvP or anything like that. When you spend points on scout skills or feats, the lvl of sacrifice remains the same, but you do not get offensive bonus. It is merely defensive. You wont become more powerfull in combat, different than a rogue. Sop the skills and feats shouldnt be compared as the same, because the rogue gains much more when chooses to get stealth instead of ac and other combat feats. But the scout/spotter will get to see you. That is all. He wont be able to sneak you for 200 dmg like the stealth skills give you. The stealth can be used to avoid combat as much as to engage, while the scout skills can only be used to avoid combat, by being alert. They wont give you any offensive advantage. Imho, the scout skills and feats are much more like a sacrifice than the stealth skill/feats. Hipsters shouldnt complain about being seen, as much as a scout shouldnt complain about being sneaked to death in 2 hits. Hide and MS skills is far to be enough to not be seen, where I lose is that I have to use gears to add to my Hide / MS where I could get better AC gears and Resistance gears instead.. remember that even if you are hips once you attack you are vulnerable for another 6 sec if your defense is low you mostly dead.. You misunderstood me. The same way you have chosen feats and skills to hide and move silently, people can chose skills and feats to spot you and listen to your movement. But still, the hide/ms gives you advantage. Example: The hide/ms gives stealth and makes you near invisible. But added to that, rogues use that to greatly improve their dmg. Now spot/listen makes you see those hidden characters, but do not improve anything on your offensive/combat skills. So the sacrifice is greater when you chose to spend points and feats on spot/listen, instead of hide/ms. Rogues have that advantage. Like two mages: One sacrifices a fireball spell to get imunity to fire. The other sacrifices imunity to fire to use a fireball. But if they are not facing each other, the one with the fireball will likely win a fight alone if he win the iniciative. The one with a imunity to fire can surelly survive if facing a fire elemental or something like that, but he is weak against the rest and cannot fight like a regular mage. This is a harsh example, but ilustrates my argument. Hide/Ms, is far more powerfull than spot/listen.
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Post by adzling on Jan 19, 2009 15:04:07 GMT -5
re: zealote. ok i see what you're getting at here however rogues rely on stealth for their damage output. Imagine if i could invest points in "resist cleric damage output" that when maxed allowed me to ignore all of a cleric's damage that results from buffs leaving only a paltry few points. Wouldn't that be dramatically powerful?
re: flaming fist. they should hire bard, druid or wizard multi-classed NPCs for spotting hipsters. a pure warrior is not meant to nor should he be able to spot a pure stealther. all they need is a few levels of any of those classes and they are good to go, or able learner.
re: magic means and spotting/listening. when you reach uber-stealther level it's practically a magic ability in itself. In fact HIPs IS a kind of magical ability per description.
re: 1 level dip in SD. I agree this should be cut, move the HIPs power to level 3 or level 5 of SD (and i am a HIPster!!).
re: a hipster standing under a light or in open sunlight agreed this is abused.
the complaint ISN'T high level specialized characters can spot hiders (at least that's not my complaint). my beef is that ANY high level who has invested points in listen OR spot can find a hipster almost instantly if they know what they are doing. It would be much better if it took longer to spot the uber hipsters and/or listen was adjusted so you couldn't exploit it by targeting the still hidden person directly.
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Post by DM Sir Carnifex on Jan 19, 2009 15:23:38 GMT -5
The Flaming Fist is not a group of traveling minstrels. And encouraging the current members to start taking cheese levels of bard just to gain bonuses to listen sounds very odd coming from a person who has "Fight the Cheese" in his signature.
No, before I let the Flaming Fist deteriorate into semi-militant troubadours, I will just give up managing them. But that won't happen, and bards won't be suitable material for the Fist.
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meldor
Senior Member
QC Team
Posts: 369
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Post by meldor on Jan 19, 2009 15:23:48 GMT -5
You misunderstood me. The same way you have chosen feats and skills to hide and move silently, people can chose skills and feats to spot you and listen to your movement. But still, the hide/ms gives you advantage. Example: The hide/ms gives stealth and makes you near invisible. But added to that, rogues use that to greatly improve their dmg. Now spot/listen makes you see those hidden characters, but do not improve anything on your offensive/combat skills. So the sacrifice is greater when you chose to spend points and feats on spot/listen, instead of hide/ms. Rogues have that advantage. Like two mages: One sacrifices a fireball spell to get imunity to fire. The other sacrifices imunity to fire to use a fireball. But if they are not facing each other, the one with the fireball will likely win a fight alone if he win the iniciative. The one with a imunity to fire can surelly survive if facing a fire elemental or something like that, but he is weak against the rest and cannot fight like a regular mage. That is a harsh example, but ilustrates my argument. Hide/Ms, is far more powerfull than spot/listen. The difference is classes that invest points in spot / listen dont need to be hidden to increase or simply do dmg... while a pure rogue / assassin once he has been revealed he is totally useless because of his low WILL & FORT saves / AC and add to that that a lot of peoples with spells are immune to critical hits / sneak attacks.
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meldor
Senior Member
QC Team
Posts: 369
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Post by meldor on Jan 19, 2009 15:28:36 GMT -5
The Flaming Fist is not a group of traveling minstrels. And encouraging the current members to start taking cheese levels of bard just to gain bonuses to listen sounds very odd coming from a person who has "Fight the Cheese" in his signature. No, before I let the Flaming Fist deteriorate into semi-militant troubadours, I will just give up managing them. But that won't happen, and bards won't be suitable material for the Fist. Just do some wanted posts and let the bounty hunters find the peoples you want to jail.. It's not the role of the Fist to do this job. Your job is to provide security and enforce the laws in the city ..
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Post by Zealote on Jan 19, 2009 15:35:40 GMT -5
Ahhh you forget the hunting party of Flaming Fists that used to show up at every transition in BG 1 if you had evil reputation! I SERVE THE FLAMING FIST! STAND AWAY CITIZEN!
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Post by DM Sir Carnifex on Jan 19, 2009 15:36:48 GMT -5
The Flaming Fist is not a group of traveling minstrels. And encouraging the current members to start taking cheese levels of bard just to gain bonuses to listen sounds very odd coming from a person who has "Fight the Cheese" in his signature. No, before I let the Flaming Fist deteriorate into semi-militant troubadours, I will just give up managing them. But that won't happen, and bards won't be suitable material for the Fist. Just do some wanted posts and let the bounty hunters find the peoples you want to jail.. It's not the role of the Fist to do this job. Your job is to provide security and enforce the laws in the city .. I think you misunderstand what the Flaming Fist is. They not only have jurisdiction over the city, but also over the surrounding lands. If they do not attempt to catch criminals, then how are they enforcing the law? How can the Fist provide security by doing nothing? That is like saying that modern day police do not have the duty to hunt down lawbreakers, but have to rely on vigilantes. I will mention another thing the Fist are not. They are not uniformed holders of the jail keys, paid to open and close cell doors.
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