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Post by adzling on Jan 19, 2009 16:32:11 GMT -5
ah but how about ranger levels for the flaming fist? solves all your problems with no cheese, no breaking of the fist's "we only hire warriors" policy.
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Post by hnefi on Jan 19, 2009 16:32:52 GMT -5
Well, it's no more unreasonable than suggesting that guards should be able to spot stealthers without being skilled at detecting them, is it? I can't help that druids and bards are the best spotter classes; it's just the way it is. Therefore, if you want the Flaming Fist to be good at catching them, then you need to hire some epic bards or druids, or change the way the game works.
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meldor
Senior Member
QC Team
Posts: 369
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Post by meldor on Jan 19, 2009 16:38:02 GMT -5
Let see how this end up ... but as far as I see it as a pure rogue / assassin right now my ability to pvp is really limited with everyone listening / spotting me and to the others I have to wait for a pvp consent which make my ambush ability useless.
I have pvped against a lot of players recently and equal level it's not easy at all to win with my build. Where I should be able to use stoneskin, Greater Heroism and all the nice scrolls to help myself they aren't available to merchants. Rogues and Bard's can use UMD but we are really restricted at the moment on that side.
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Post by DM Sir Carnifex on Jan 19, 2009 16:42:58 GMT -5
ah but how about ranger levels for the flaming fist? solves all your problems with no cheese, no breaking of the fist's "we only hire warriors" policy. You are quite right here. Rangers are perfectly acceptable, however I do not go so far as to dictating what the build of the PC is, so long as it is within reason. If any rangers wish to sign on, that's fine. Well, it's no more unreasonable than suggesting that guards should be able to spot stealthers without being skilled at detecting them, is it? I can't help that druids and bards are the best spotter classes; it's just the way it is. Therefore, if you want the Flaming Fist to be good at catching them, then you need to hire some epic bards or druids, or change the way the game works. I think something that people don't seem to realize is that I don't go out there, grab a PC from the crowd and say "You are joining the Fist." I have to work with the people who do sign up (and they are very few, indeed). Of course, that is assuming I would ever accept a druid or bard in the Fist. Fact is, even with their bonuses to spotting and listening, I think it would be very poor RP to have any of those within the organization - both on my part as the one who runs it and on the part of the person who joined. Sometimes I believe that people get caught up in the mechanics of the game to the extent that they forget about the entire RP aspect of things. I do not recommend the game is changed, nor do I recommend that everybody out there can spot any sort of stealth character. I just believe that there SHOULD be a few available items to help spot, and that the Fist should have high-end gear available to them. If they cannot get it, then I think the Thieves/Assassin's guild shouldn't have their special equipment available. It wouldn't be fair to give benefits to one guild and then deny it to another. Although I do hear new FF equipment is coming, though I have no idea what it does as of yet. Hopefully it gives a major bonus to spot and listen.
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Post by caveman282 on Jan 19, 2009 16:43:59 GMT -5
trueseeing no worky (nor meant to) on people hiding using skills (i don't know how often i have to correct this misconception due to poor ingame description *shakes fist at bugsidian*). it only worky on magically hidden folks (i.e invisible/ polymorphed). and yar giving them +50 spot items would work....but given the magic level on this server that seems a pretty heavy dose of cheese. much better just give em 1 level of ranger for every 3 levels of fighter. fits with their stated mission AND gives them max spot and listen. hold the cheese! so there ^^ gah more guilds to take rangers away from the nature guild....and no Druids cant be part of the city guard it goes against everything a druid stands for even if they are the best spotter. There is a PRC class for druids that is called a city druid but that isnt an option here. Rangers protecting the city is just as bad RP as druids protecting the city. They are the guards of the forrest and druids. I think if one of the devs could build PRC classes then maybe make one just for the Flaming Fist so they could have spot/listen as a class skill.
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Post by DM Sir Carnifex on Jan 19, 2009 16:46:17 GMT -5
^^ gah more guilds to take rangers away from the nature guild....and no Druids cant be part of the city guard it goes against everything a druid stands for even if they are the best spotter. There is a PRC class for druids that is called a city druid but that isnt an option here. Rangers protecting the city is just as bad RP as druids protecting the city. They are the guards of the forrest and druids. True about rangers, though I give more flexibility to this class than the druid. A ranger, technically, could be a bow specialist/scout and doesn't necessarily have to be a guardian of the forest. This could be RPed simply by not using the animal companion.
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Post by adzling on Jan 19, 2009 16:48:04 GMT -5
well hnefi is correct imho if you look at it from a purely game mechanics viewpoint and carn has a good point from a RP perspective.
and there's the rub.
dnd has no provision for making warriors good spotters UNLESS they take able learner OR multiclass.
Which leads me back to the same question: why not have every fifth flaming fist member choose ranger levels OR able learner to get access to spot skills? This keep it right RP wise and allows them to access everything but the most uber hiders without further borking hiders already harsh time.
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Post by hnefi on Jan 19, 2009 16:49:04 GMT -5
Well, I can understand why you'd consider druids to be poorly fit for the Fist; but why bards? They're excellent spotters, diplomats, warriors and party supporters. Except for the label "bard", I can't think of a class more fit to put in a group such as the Fists.
As for your comments about detection items, I agree whole-heartedly. But then, except for the Fist apparently lacking special equipment, that's exactly what we have now, at least according to the only numbers presented in this thread. If there's gear that I've missed (and I'm sure there is), feel free to do your own research and adjust the numbers I presented accordingly. If you can show that the stealth gear gives more than +15/+15 more than the detection gear does, then and only then will I agree that a change is needed.
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Post by caveman282 on Jan 19, 2009 16:53:24 GMT -5
^^ gah more guilds to take rangers away from the nature guild....and no Druids cant be part of the city guard it goes against everything a druid stands for even if they are the best spotter. There is a PRC class for druids that is called a city druid but that isnt an option here. Rangers protecting the city is just as bad RP as druids protecting the city. They are the guards of the forrest and druids. True about rangers, though I give more flexibility to this class than the druid. A ranger, technically, could be a bow specialist/scout and doesn't necessarily have to be a guardian of the forest. This could be RPed simply by not using the animal companion. Yup I agree with ya there . If they only go 3 lvls of ranger and with able learner then they wouldnt have an animal companion and still be able to max spot/listen. But to actually have a high lvl ranger char guarding the city means they spent a lot of time earning their skills as a ranger and not in the city. I think Monk could have the same flexability as not to take too many lvls of monk and Rp a brawler and not a monk. But there comes a point when hes a monk and not a brawler. As a char lvls even if they can do it in a day or a week or a month it signifies that they have spent many many hours focusing on that class and learning its abilites.
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Post by luna on Jan 19, 2009 16:54:31 GMT -5
Hmm.. you must be talking PvP only here right? I know for sure no monster can spot you with a hide and ms at 60. I heard that an evil bard has been teaching the monsters some skills in observation. I'm not sure they'll ever be able to see someone in the 60's without a lot of epic levels, or epic red wizard items though. Just wait til the evil chest guardians go in. They will randomly pop out of chests when you open them and attack. Spot=100, Listen=100, True Seeing will be cast on them. There will be no hiding from them!! ;D
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Post by adzling on Jan 19, 2009 16:58:16 GMT -5
thanks for acknowledging my suggestion caveman.
with a few levels of ranger and/or able learner even a warrior can max spot and listen. the flaming fist already has the tools to catch spotters without resorting to bards or druids if they build their spotter characters properly,if they don't it's not the fault of stealthers. sometimes you have to choose utility over straight combat power....take some ranger levels....you know you'll like it ;-)
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Post by DM Sir Carnifex on Jan 19, 2009 17:18:17 GMT -5
thanks for acknowledging my suggestion caveman. with a few levels of ranger and/or able learner even a warrior can max spot and listen. the flaming fist already has the tools to catch spotters without resorting to bards or druids if they build their spotter characters properly,if they don't it's not the fault of stealthers. sometimes you have to choose utility over straight combat power....take some ranger levels....you know you'll like it ;-) Now we just need the members, right? Seriously, I'm wondering if the Fist isn't just where people just send their unwanted PCs to go to die.
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Post by hnefi on Jan 19, 2009 17:20:23 GMT -5
Well, that's a separate problem; nobody wants to play the good guy. Solve that, and I'll be really impressed
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Post by adzling on Jan 19, 2009 17:23:46 GMT -5
haar carn!
well the reason you get all the duff seconds is because their main toon is in the thieve's guild while the player's alt is using his fist toon to funnel information to him about when the fist are going to bust them ;-)
no really why not just give the fist weekly pay? they do a service they should get paid. of course then you'd have to disable players from having ALTs in other guilds otherwise they'd just mule all that gold they acquired from working for the fist to their ALT in the theive's guild ;P
hehehe
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Post by Zealote on Jan 19, 2009 17:35:52 GMT -5
Meldor, about Ujio: I remember you trying to hide right next to him at the farmlands. Ujio was not moving and you came close to him. That give him the advantage and also you stood there for some time before he could notice you. Dont expect to remain breathing on my neck without being spotted. Specially when I can roll higher spot than you can hide.
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