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Post by luna on Jan 19, 2009 15:38:19 GMT -5
I agree with on that adzling. The listen check makes you ''see'' the hidden character, which is ridiculous. Instead, it should make you see a shadow for a few seconds, just to know the location of the hidden character. Ye.. this is a bit odd. People should RP a successful listen check as I hear somebody there, not "Hi Chloe" as an example. If they start calling out you name because you show up black when a listen roll is hit it's Meta-Gaming. Okie I can name you peoples who saw Chloe hidden recently.. Chezy something Broham1 character Rina Ujio Rai Azrael Hakeem And there are probably more... this was in the last 5 days. So 5 EPICs caught you Meldor. Is that terrible (I'm asking this honestly)? I don't consider that so bad.. but thats just my own opinion. Add to that druid / wizard / cleric got spells to be immune to critical hits... what is left to a pure rogue / assassin ? Hmm.. you must be talking PvP only here right? I know for sure no monster can spot you with a hide and ms at 60. You should be in great shape for fighting all the critters in the mod with stealth like that. In fact you have a huge advantage over other players since you can always retreat from combat by hiding and never get killed unless something lands a lucky blow on you. Last time I played a HIPs character I never died once I got HIPs. Any time I got low on health I just backed out of combat. Fighters and many other classes do not get to do this. And you get to backstab anything not immune to it and deal high damage that way. I've seen plenty of rogue's destroy things that are not immune to backstab. You can easily get backstab up to 50+ damage. So I don't buy into this sympathec rogue arguement.
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Post by Zealote on Jan 19, 2009 15:38:39 GMT -5
I will mention another thing the Fist are not. They are not uniformed holders of the jail keys, paid to open and close cell doors. You tell'em SirC! ;D
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Post by adzling on Jan 19, 2009 15:38:56 GMT -5
haha carn you got a point there re: cheese! however i would never advocate taking less than the server rules of 3 levels of anything which greatly reduces the cheese factor. and yar, i hear yeah on the flaming fist not becoming a group of travelling minstrels! (laughs at the thought)
then i would suggest just give a few of the NPC fists the skill able learner and max out their listen skill, and perhaps their spot if you want to make them better at it. toss in a few scrolls of amplify and/or a few spot items and whammo! flaming fist that can spot anything but the most uber hider. or just give 'em a few levels of ranger for access to spot skills.
there are ways to make things work without resulting to cheese, we just gotta talk it out and brainstorm with each other yar?
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Post by eldur(retired) on Jan 19, 2009 15:45:44 GMT -5
Hmm.. you must be talking PvP only here right? I know for sure no monster can spot you with a hide and ms at 60. I heard that an evil bard has been teaching the monsters some skills in observation. I'm not sure they'll ever be able to see someone in the 60's without a lot of epic levels, or epic red wizard items though.
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Post by caveman282 on Jan 19, 2009 15:56:24 GMT -5
haha carn you got a point there re: cheese! however i would never advocate taking less than the server rules of 3 levels of anything which greatly reduces the cheese factor. and yar, i hear yeah on the flaming fist not becoming a group of travelling minstrels! (laughs at the thought) then i would suggest just give a few of the NPC fists the skill able learner and max out their listen skill, and perhaps their spot if you want to make them better at it. toss in a few scrolls of amplify and/or a few spot items and whammo! flaming fist that can spot anything but the most uber hider. or just give 'em a few levels of ranger for access to spot skills. there are ways to make things work without resulting to cheese, we just gotta talk it out and brainstorm with each other yar? I know Items can have +5 listen and +5 spot why not allow every peice of the fist gear have this on it. The items stack and with each other and with it on every item available that would be +50 spot/listen. Or you could add one item with true seeing for the fist.
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Post by adzling on Jan 19, 2009 16:00:36 GMT -5
trueseeing no worky (nor meant to) on people hiding using skills (i don't know how often i have to correct this misconception due to poor ingame description *shakes fist at bugsidian*). it only worky on magically hidden folks (i.e invisible/ polymorphed). and yar giving them +50 spot items would work....but given the magic level on this server that seems a pretty heavy dose of cheese. much better just give em 1 level of ranger for every 3 levels of fighter. fits with their stated mission AND gives them max spot and listen. hold the cheese! so there
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Post by broham2 on Jan 19, 2009 16:04:50 GMT -5
I agree with both sides, the Fist is a large merc company that would and should have access to gear that aides them in their work...
But at the same time, allowing everyone access to this gear strips the rogue of some of their powers. A high skill advantage over H/MS is like items with high physical damage resistance or magical resistance... it takes the key portion of the rogues power away.
So my suggestions would be to A) give 'torches of illumination' to the Fist that add a +10 to spot/listen and maybe a helm with similar abilities and B) leave these types of items for the Fist alone.
Its no fun playin cops and robbers if the cops are blind anyway. ha ha.
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Post by adzling on Jan 19, 2009 16:06:48 GMT -5
not to belabor the point (ok I am) but just give one in five (or so) fist members ranger levels, fits with their mission to protect the roads and cities and gives them access the skills they want without cheese items. *runs away*
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Post by hnefi on Jan 19, 2009 16:09:28 GMT -5
Look, you can't claim that the Flaming Fist is a competent force of guards and then exclude the best guard classes in the game from joining while saying that stealth is too powerful. I agree that bards are, as a concept, silly, but that doesn't change the fact that bards and druids ARE the spotter classes in this rule system. They are the best guards (bards are good diplomats too), and unless that changes, you can't use the alleged inability of the Fist to catch HiPSters as an argument that HiPS is too powerful until the Fist includes some epic bards and/or druids.
You also can't use the argument that magic should not be necessary to catch HiPSters as long as such magic is available, because if they are catchable without magic (even long-lasting magic), then they are completely helpless against someone with such magic. Few classes have a couple of spells or abilities that completely nullify them, but if stealth/spot items aren't balanced properly, rogues are in that category.
Zealote is correct, of course, in that stealth gives a positive advantage in any situation whereas spotting is situational. On the other hand, spotting only requires half the investment of stealth (at most) to remain equally effective; spending as much on spotting as a stealther does on stealth means the spotter is much more effective at what he does than the stealther is. I guess that's how Obsidian meant to balance things out, and it's not unreasonable, IMHO. It's just something to keep in mind during balancing efforts.
Earlier in this thread, I noted that the current equipment that I've found seems pretty balanced; slightly above +30/+30 for stealth and around +25/+25 for spot. This means, given how stealth works, that spotting specialists (bards, mainly) can instantly spot a HiPSter he knows to look for, via Amplify and C&C, while HiPSters he doesn't know to look for will remain unseen for a while. Not a long while, but with luck, enough to sneak past. I think that's pretty reasonable.
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Post by adzling on Jan 19, 2009 16:12:33 GMT -5
^^hnefi is da man^^
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Post by hnefi on Jan 19, 2009 16:15:43 GMT -5
Hmm.. you must be talking PvP only here right? I know for sure no monster can spot you with a hide and ms at 60. I heard that an evil bard has been teaching the monsters some skills in observation. I'm not sure they'll ever be able to see someone in the 60's without a lot of epic levels, or epic red wizard items though. Heh. Honestly, some mobs with both True Seeing and uber-epic detection skills would be nice. No class should be able to solo every mob, after all.
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Post by hnefi on Jan 19, 2009 16:18:21 GMT -5
Oh, one more thing; hiding behind bushes is, as far as I understand, what stealth is supposed to emulate. It's admittedly a flawed implementation but then stealth is extremely hard to implement in a robust manner. Moving behind bushes is something anyone can do in the game, without any skill points invested in anything. That's not relevant to the discussion about the actual stealth mechanic and the balance thereof, particularily HiPS which is the exact opposite of hiding behind obstacles.
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meldor
Senior Member
QC Team
Posts: 369
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Post by meldor on Jan 19, 2009 16:22:53 GMT -5
Ye.. this is a bit odd. People should RP a successful listen check as I hear somebody there, not "Hi Chloe" as an example. If they start calling out you name because you show up black when a listen roll is hit it's Meta-Gaming. Would be nice to find a way so peoples cant target you and attack you if they can listen. But sadly most peoples meta-game and abuse of it. So 5 EPICs caught you Meldor. Is that terrible (I'm asking this honestly)? I don't consider that so bad.. but thats just my own opinion. Oh and I forgot Nahum, Well most of them are lower level then me and there are not many epics characters around so yes its 80% of the epic characters I have met in the last 5 days. I think it's a lot. Hmm.. you must be talking PvP only here right? I know for sure no monster can spot you with a hide and ms at 60. You should be in great shape for fighting all the critters in the mod with stealth like that. In fact you have a huge advantage over other players since you can always retreat from combat by hiding and never get killed unless something lands a lucky blow on you. Last time I played a HIPs character I never died once I got HIPs. Any time I got low on health I just backed out of combat. Fighters and many other classes do not get to do this. And you get to backstab anything not immune to it and deal high damage that way. I've seen plenty of rogue's destroy things that are not immune to backstab. You can easily get backstab up to 50+ damage. So I don't buy into this sympathec rogue arguement. PVE wise it's fine but items are designed for players not NPC so we talk about PVP here. There also another bug about hiding on DM events. Each time I use hiding before a DM spawn some monsters.. look like on apparition they see me.
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Post by DM Sir Carnifex on Jan 19, 2009 16:22:54 GMT -5
I can only laugh at the thought of having druids in the Flaming Fist. Excuse me? Druids sworn to protecting a city and patrolling the roads?
Sorry, but people claim one side is unreasonable and then make entirely off-the-wall suggestions.
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meldor
Senior Member
QC Team
Posts: 369
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Post by meldor on Jan 19, 2009 16:31:42 GMT -5
I heard that an evil bard has been teaching the monsters some skills in observation. I'm not sure they'll ever be able to see someone in the 60's without a lot of epic levels, or epic red wizard items though. Heh. Honestly, some mobs with both True Seeing and uber-epic detection skills would be nice. No class should be able to solo every mob, after all. Not because you can hide that monsters are easy to kills.. Have you tried to solo Haunted Horror or Frost Giants with a pure rogue.. good luck and you will quick find out that HIPS doesn't help much other then let you escape because you cant do anything.
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