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Post by Zealote on Jan 12, 2009 17:26:23 GMT -5
Yeah, I understand what you're saying, but here nothing gives more than 6 on any skill. And the ones that gives 6 are like super items. Dont worry, no one will get 20, 15 or 10 on anything.
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Post by DM Sin on Jan 12, 2009 17:28:04 GMT -5
There is one way to resolve this problem. Remove the Shadowdancer PrC!! Then we can just add high stealth gear and dont need to worry about the rest! Bah hah hah! *thats a joke, all you HiPSters out there don't bash your keyboards in anger just yet!*
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Post by Zealote on Jan 12, 2009 17:34:49 GMT -5
Lmao, shadowdancers are not the problem....assassins are! Damn nasty hitters! ROFL
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Post by adzling on Jan 12, 2009 17:52:43 GMT -5
well here's another thing to consider from a math perspective:
a hipster with EXACTLY EQUAL skills to a spotter INCLUDING ALL SPELLS, ITEMS ETC has only a 25% chance or remaining hidden per round when the spotter is actively searching or an elf. Why? Because the spotter gets to make two rolls (listen and ms) and only needs to succeed on ONE roll against the hipster while the hipster needs to succeed on both rolls.
The best way to deal with this is let hnefi or me build a spotter of equivalent level to the person on the server you deem to have the best hide/ms (or just let us build both toons) and do a quick test in game. Well show you that barring a difference of +15 or so to the hipster the spotter will see the hipster almost instantly every time.
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meldor
Senior Member
QC Team
Posts: 369
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Post by meldor on Jan 12, 2009 18:38:23 GMT -5
I'm not fond of Meldors Idea though that there should be no items sold that boost spot / listen as this would tend to heavily skew things to much in favor of stealth. That's not true Luna, never I said I didnt want any items to be made, all I am saying is I want it to be done carefully. I will trust Ice about it. Meldor
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Post by luna on Jan 12, 2009 18:55:25 GMT -5
I'm not fond of Meldors Idea though that there should be no items sold that boost spot / listen as this would tend to heavily skew things to much in favor of stealth. That's not true Luna, never I said I didnt want any items to be made, all I am saying is I want it to be done carefully. I will trust Ice about it. Meldor YOUR RIGHT! And good point. I gave you karma. Your stock is rising!
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Post by adzling on Jan 12, 2009 20:40:06 GMT -5
in the interest of full disclosure (and accurate development on the part of the devs) I am going to post the full method for determining spot/listen effectiveness vs. hide/ms here for everyone to see.
I am going to exclude magic items. Both will be level 30. Both are humans.
First the spotter. Spot 33 Listen 33 Alertness feat: =+2 Greater Heroism: =+4 Wisdom: unbuffed 25 = +7 bonus Actively searching OR an Elf: =1-20 (average 10.5) Standing still: =+5 sub-total: 61.5
If using owl's wisdom 29 =+9/ If Druid with Owl's insight 37= +13/ sub-total: 63.5/67.5
Clairaudience: +10 sub-total: 73.5/77.5
Amplify: +20 sub-total: 83.5/87.5
Both clairaudience + amplify: sub-total: 93.5/97.5
Other possible bonuses: Bard inspire competence aura +6 Skill focus spot: +2 Skill focus listen: +2 Not searching or not an elf: -5 moving -5
Now the hipster. Hide 33 Move Silently 33 Stealthy feat: =+2 Greater Heroism: =+4 Dexterity: unbuffed 25 = +7 bonus 1-20 (average 10.5) sub-total: 56.5
If using cat's grace 29 =+9 sub-total: 58.5
Has a cat familiar summoned: =+2 (says +3 but it's actually +2) sub-total: 60.5
Other possible bonuses: Bard inspire competence aura: =+6 Duergar: +4MS Hobbit: +2MS
When searching the system checks at least once per round and because the hipster must succeed at both Hide AND MS while the spotter only needs to succeed at one roll when both are evenly matched the HIPster will only succeed 25% of the time. Or to look at from the spotter's perspective he will succeed in spotting the HIPster 75% of the time checking each round.
As you can see from the above math the spotter has much easier time accumulating *much* higher spot/listen even without short duration mega-buffs likes clairaudience/ amplify. And amplify being a level one spell it can actually last quite long.
Toss in more than one observer and the HIPsters chances decline dramatically.
In reality my in-game experience is that against a dedicated spotter even the most dedicated hipster will be spotted in a matter of a few rounds.
Of course if you build your spotter incorrectly, rely upon only one skill or are not in active search mode your chances to spot the hipster drop substantially, which is how it should be.
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Post by DM Sir Carnifex on Jan 12, 2009 22:03:44 GMT -5
But judging from what we've been told, I started suspecting that the server might implement spot/listen gear that's too strong as a knee-jerk reaction without thinking things through; without numbers, I can't tell whether that's an accurate assessment or not, but it's the reason I'm posting in this thread. I don't think that a server gets to be the quality that this one is by not "thinking things through". I don't think there is such thing as a sudden decision on this server on the part of the DEVs. * * * All numbers aside, people might also be forgetting the RP aspect of hiding. It's a tendency I notice among HIPS users that they stand in the middle of the road right next to a person and expect to hide. For the most part, they can, because not many have the means to detect them easily. However, in this case, a good spotter should have a VERY easy time detecting them. But this is where the RP comes in. If, say, you act like a skulking person should and stay behind a hill, tree, shrub, or building, even if the person rolls a listen or spot check to see you, the player himself may not (I've seen this before, so trust me). So essentially, you are still hidden and in six seconds you have a chance to go HIPS again without anyone being the wiser. So, what I'm saying here is that successful hiding is not entirely all die rolls, but also proper role-playing. Just as an example, I one time (as a DM) had a kobold herd a cow and six chickens along the road in plain sight right behind a group of people who were discussing the latest kobold raid and telling each other to be on the alert. The kobold and the animals passed within a few paces of the whole group and not one of them spotted the theft. In other words, people can HIPS without having to depend on that ability constantly and on lucky die rolls.
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Post by adzling on Jan 12, 2009 22:15:36 GMT -5
your points regarding rp are of course always relevant regardless of dice rolls carn.
i posted the math because it was said that the best hipsters cannot be spotted using game mechanics. this is clearly incorrect, you just have to build a spotter correctly to do it. I was demonstrating how to the best hipster WITH EQUIVALENT GEAR can be spotted with 6-12 seconds by even a moderately well built spotter. the best spotter builds will always spot a hipster almost instantly absent an item advantage for the hipster.
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Post by hnefi on Jan 12, 2009 23:14:47 GMT -5
Yeah, you're right. I guess my excuse is that I come from a server where the lone admin changed the lowbie spawns to include packs of wolves that does up to 30 damage on a non-critical and has an AB of 10 before he left for several months, leaving lowbies stuck in a single area in the city sewers grinding zombies for about eight levels. The situation here is incomparable, and it is definitely reassuring.
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Post by hnefi on Jan 14, 2009 12:44:41 GMT -5
Hey. I hate to bring this up again, but I've checked some of the equipment around BG (I can't go terribly far with my low-level chars )... I was told to check out a place in BG for some great stealth eq. Well, the total simultaneously equippable bonus to hide/ms was +32/+34. Without any spot equipment at all, that bonus is enough to stay hidden permanently against a spotter not using C&C or Amplify. But, I also found some spot equipment. Depending on what you want, the following three maximum combinations were possible: +20/+18, +27/+15 or +17/+23. That's a FAR cry from no detection equipment at all! In fact, considering the way stealth works, I'd say it's pretty balanced. Some (certainly not all) of that equipment is for rogue type classes only, but that's hardly an issue for the best spotters in the game - bards - since they get UMD as a class skill. I've probably missed some equipment, but since there seems to be quite a lot of spotter equipment available already contrary to what's been said, are those in the know sure that things really are that unbalanced? It seems pretty okay to me.
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Post by adzling on Jan 14, 2009 13:10:43 GMT -5
thanks for this hnefi i only have access to the UD.
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Post by Iceshard on Jan 14, 2009 13:29:31 GMT -5
UMD doesnt function like it needs to anymore or at least for some things. We have had issues with scrolls and wands, dont know on items so far but we know its slightly bugged.
As for spotter gear and Stealth gear, its out there, you just need to look.
-Ice
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Post by hnefi on Jan 14, 2009 13:30:55 GMT -5
UMD bugged? Are you sure it's not just the new rules - UMD 10+spell level to be able to attempt using scrolls, and UMD 20 for using wands (IIRC)?
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Post by adzling on Jan 14, 2009 13:34:56 GMT -5
i also think it's the new (saner) rules hnefi. but i could be wrong.
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