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Post by hnefi on Jan 12, 2009 15:47:15 GMT -5
Why wouldn't you use long-term spells and particularily bard songs (which are permanent) though? They can and most definitely will come into play.
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Post by Zealote on Jan 12, 2009 15:52:37 GMT -5
As I've said, this is just a matter of skill vs skill discussion. Spells are an extra thing. As was well put, the spells and songs must be used AFTER the first hit by a hipster, since you dont know he is there to begin with. And you wont be able to use it, since you will probably be dead. Just ask Hakeem/Ice. These songs and spells are not for scouting, they are to be used in a hunt or in combat mode, since they dont last forever and use them just because you know OOC a assassin is in the area is metagame. The purpose of skill vs skill is to give the same oportunity to the spotter as it is given to the hipster. Item wise.
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Post by DEV Jlf2n on Jan 12, 2009 16:00:22 GMT -5
Ha! What are you guys not concerned about is the question?
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Post by Zealote on Jan 12, 2009 16:02:17 GMT -5
Dude, im the SAGE OF CANDLEKEEP! Respect me or I will call Gorion.
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Post by DM Sir Carnifex on Jan 12, 2009 16:08:35 GMT -5
Note what I mentioned about the various classes getting skill points was not even close to a complaint about that aspect of the game. I was merely pointing out that there will be very few builds in which a character specializes in nothing but spot and listen, whereas there will be quite a few of the opposite (i.e, hide and move silently).
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Post by adzling on Jan 12, 2009 16:17:42 GMT -5
ok i just pmd zealote with the math behind this. It demonstrates quite effectively just how difficult it is for a dedicated hipster to maintain hiding against a PROPERLY BUILT dedicated spotter.
so i recommend the dm team get with him and review my submission.
it is eye-opening to say the least.
now as far as spells not counting this because it's skill vs. skill this is somewhat misleading.
people DO metagame and DO use the player list to see who is in the area they are in much the same way people use the CR rating to preview their opponents. you cant stop them and yelling "metagamer" while in-game is silly and never works.
and finally guys these are certainly not complaints.
rather it's a couple of dedicated players who have a solid grasp of the obtuse underlying mechanics demonstrating where your assumptions *may* be wrong.
thanks for consideration.
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Post by luna on Jan 12, 2009 16:32:17 GMT -5
ok i just pmd zealote with the math behind this. It demonstrates quite effectively just how difficult it is for a dedicated hipster to maintain hiding against a PROPERLY BUILT dedicated spotter. I don't know this is bad per se that you can't maintain hiding. I'm not sure how long your talking, but if you can maintain hiding for say 10 rounds, thats not bad. Iceshard has a good point earlier. You should be able to do your work while Hiden fairly fast. Do you need to remain hidden and undetectable forever?? When HIPs gets to a point where players just cannot be detected accept by a bard using amplify and Clairaudience/clairvoyance, then HIPs tends to get abused as a feat. This would be my own opinion based on expereinces on other servers. It's also good to have a counter-measure against any type of build, in this case HIPs. I don't think it's bad to allow some items in the game to allow spot or listen bonuses. Allowing said items doesn't mean every player on the server will all of the sudden have the skill to detect the HIPs players. It just tends to even the playing field in certain cases. And allowing said items in shops has no impact on Meldors ability to fight frost giants.
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Post by hnefi on Jan 12, 2009 16:44:00 GMT -5
As I've said, this is just a matter of skill vs skill discussion. Spells are an extra thing. As was well put, the spells and songs must be used AFTER the first hit by a hipster, since you dont know he is there to begin with. And you wont be able to use it, since you will probably be dead. Just ask Hakeem/Ice. These songs and spells are not for scouting, they are to be used in a hunt or in combat mode, since they dont last forever and use them just because you know OOC a assassin is in the area is metagame. I very strongly disagree. C&C (since persistent spell has been removed) and Amplify, sure, they can be considered combat only; but Owl's Insight/Wisdom and Greater Heroism have very long durations and can be on 24/7. Just buff up when you log on, and when the spells run out, walk off behind a corner or into a tavern and do a quick rest/rebuff. IC'ly, you should go to bed anyway; if your Owl's Insight runs out at level 20, you've been awake for 20 hours straight (40 if you extended it). And inspire competence is permanent. It never runs out. These buffs should be activated by any serious spotter whenever they are concerned about people sneaking about, such as when they are on guard duty. I play a guard on another server, and that method works very well. I get about an hour of uninterrupted RP before I excuse myself briefly and walk off to rebuff. Sure, but when actually testing, both you and them should use all options that are likely to come into play. Otherwise, the test doesn't really show anything of relevance. I'm still curious what your spot is, by the way, and your listen.
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Post by adzling on Jan 12, 2009 16:47:25 GMT -5
all builds are not meant to counter all builds.
only certain builds should be able to spot a dedicated hipster.
the main problem is this: In detection mode, you get a detection check 5 times per second, with a new roll being made once every 6 seconds.
If it was "Detection on state change" then everything would be fine. You could stand still, behind a bush and as long as you make your first hide/ms roll and nothing changes you would remain hidden for a quite a long time. however the checks every 6 seconds are crippling.
I do agree with you luna that everything but the most dedicated hipsters should not be able to remain hidden for ever. However a dedicated hipster built to max should be virtually undetectable except the by the kind of builds dedicated to finding him.
and per zealote's comment re skills vs skill this would be true if there was a spell counter to clairaudience/amplify (such as a properly working silence) but there isn't so those spells do count as do the bard auras.
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Post by hnefi on Jan 12, 2009 16:58:40 GMT -5
I don't know this is bad per se that you can't maintain hiding. I'm not sure how long your talking, but if you can maintain hiding for say 10 rounds, thats not bad. Iceshard has a good point earlier. You should be able to do your work while Hiden fairly fast. Do you need to remain hidden and undetectable forever?? Well, that's the crux of the problem, isn't it? If you are spying on someone and eavesdropping on their conversations, you'll need to be able to remain hidden for long periods of time - sometimes very long. If you're going to attack, a few seconds will do. If you need to interrupt a spell cast at you, you need no time at all. But as has been pointed out, if a stealther has an advantage of 19 points over someone that uses only long-term buffs, then he is at a disadvantage of up to 11 points when combat starts if the opponent has the appropriate spells (or if vendors on the server start stocking up on bone wands - a simple way to provide plentiful weapons against both HiPSters and wizards, by the way). The question is whether rogues should be able to spy on people without being detected. Well, not everyone, obviously; they'd have to be undetectable for that which, as you say, is not reasonable. But how big the gap between detection gear and stealth gear is, and how common each type is, sets the limits here. If stealth gear is common and potent, HiPSters will be undetectable outside of combat (they can never, on any server, be undetectable during combat due to skill bonus caps and amplify/c&c). If the gear is equal, then the spotters cannot be spied upon or even snuck by. I'd suggest a medium, where the optimal hiding gear gives a bonus of about 10 above the optimal spotting gear; but that's a design decision someone will have to make, not a discussion about facts. What is the situation right now, anyway? How big bonuses can gear give to hide, ms, spot and listen with the absolute optimum gear available? I'm curious, because we've seen hints that the difference is very large, but no numbers. By the way, when you implement crafting, make sure to disable the +15 hide/ms recipes; it's silly to have +29/+29 from your robes and shield, like my char on TFR has.
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Post by Zealote on Jan 12, 2009 17:06:33 GMT -5
The bottom line is: I want you guys that are against adding spot items, to try and spot a hipster IG, such as Hakeem. He is the guy with the highest hide/ms and hes also the one defending the spot/listen stuff. isnt that weird?
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Post by luna on Jan 12, 2009 17:07:44 GMT -5
all builds are not meant to counter all builds. only certain builds should be able to spot a dedicated hipster. hehehe.. of course. I don't think anyone is suggesting that all builds should counter each other. That would be crazy. I'm not fond of Meldors Idea though that there should be no items sold that boost spot / listen as this would tend to heavily skew things to much in favor of stealth. Quoting Meldor ->
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Post by hnefi on Jan 12, 2009 17:12:17 GMT -5
The bottom line is: I want you guys that are against adding spot items, to try and spot a hipster IG, such as Hakeem. Sure, give me a character of equal level to him with access to the listen gear (no need to bother with spot) that's available on the server and I'll do it if the gear situation on the server is not totally unbalanced. Because that's another thing; I don't know what the gear situation here is, because so far, no one has given any numbers and I've not played here long enough to have explored the available equipment. It's very easy to determine what's required to detect a stealther by simply looking at the numbers, but for that, the numbers must actually be presented. I'm just saying that a difference in optimal gear of about 10 or 15 in favour of the HiPSters should be pretty fair, IMHO, given the way stealth works in NWN2. Not at all. I'm also not against "the" spot/listen stuff, because I don't know what "the" spot/listen stuff is. But judging from what we've been told, I started suspecting that the server might implement spot/listen gear that's too strong as a knee-jerk reaction without thinking things through; without numbers, I can't tell whether that's an accurate assessment or not, but it's the reason I'm posting in this thread.
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Post by Zealote on Jan 12, 2009 17:15:56 GMT -5
The bottom line is: I want you guys that are against adding spot items, to try and spot a hipster IG, such as Hakeem. Sure, give me a character of equal level to him with access to the listen gear. Lol that is why I am defending the items that will be added. There is none that i can give you. And dont worry about the numbers. Ice built the stealth equipment, and now he is building the scout equipment. He knows what he is doing. Hes a talented man. And he plays the assassin IG that no one can spot so he knows what hes talking about too.
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Post by hnefi on Jan 12, 2009 17:21:31 GMT -5
All right, if you say so. I just hope my point has gotten across.
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