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Post by hnefi on Jan 12, 2009 13:47:17 GMT -5
In detection mode, you get a detection check 5 times per second, with a new roll being made once every 6 seconds. So no, you don't have a lot of time to use that HiPS if the opponent has comparable skill to you. You do, however, interrupt spells and bork targeting. I hope they fix that someday, because it's pretty lame.
Zealote: well, for passive detection, druids are about as good as bards - often better. They don't get the inspire competence, but their Owl's Insight and higher wis makes up for it. I think it makes great sense that bards and druids are the best scouts; one because of their well-roundedness and magical abilities, the other because of its closeness to instinct and reliance on the senses.
Also, remember that you shouldn't rely on spot - you can't buff your spot by much, but they can buff their hide. The opposite is true with listen/move silently. But if there really is equipment to give 20 more in hide and ms than there is for spot and listen, which I assume there is if you have the highest spot and can't catch the HiPSters (assuming there are any serious spotters on this server), then yes, I agree that more detection items are definitely needed.
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Post by Iceshard on Jan 12, 2009 13:55:51 GMT -5
Detection Mode : Search Check (Spot hidden DOORS, Traps). Search is different from Spot by the way. I hope thats not what your refering to.
Also those spot items, again I will say have only been made for Rangers and Druids. Any other classes and they may not even get an effect worth buying.
-Ice
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Post by hnefi on Jan 12, 2009 14:03:49 GMT -5
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Post by adzling on Jan 12, 2009 14:13:35 GMT -5
it's hard to argue with the math here. a hipster against a COMPETENT player with a toon DESIGNED TO SPOT someone must have +50 more than them to remain hidden for any length of time (provide the spotter is actively looking OR IS AN ELF).
Mages SHOULD NOT be expected to good spotters or listeners natively, that's not their role so complaining about their lack of skill points is moot. Fighter SHOULD NOT be expected to be good spotters or listeners either per comment above about lack of skill points. Rangers seem like they should be able to spot hipsters given their class orientation but then again SO DO ROGUES, ASSASSINS and other thief type classes that rely upon their wits and sense to stay alive so some kind of love here is possible and makes sense from a game perspective. Given the "radar" that rangers get that allow them to *cough metagame* spot hipsters on the minimap moving around that they wouldn't normally know were there it seems a little excessive to me.
However as said above druids and bards can already spot/hear even the most dedicated hipster quite easily. If they turn on active search mode then they get to make those checks much more frequently and spot folks within a few rounds.
Nonetheless this is beta so now is the time to try these things out and see what works and what doesn't.
Given hnefi and my comments regarding this i am sure either of us would be happy to demo some builds that can easily spot any hipster when both have remotely similar equipment bonuses.
The real issue here is bugsidian's implementation of the once per round dual spot/listen check. This check should occur a lot less frequently than once per round, it should occur on situation change (like someone moving past you, if they are standing still and you fail your first listen check <to hear them breathing for example> then you shouldn't get another one unless they move or you move closer to them etc). To add insult to injury the search mode/ ELF bonus means they will ALWAYS spot you almost instantly if you have less than a 20 point higher HIDE/MS skill.
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meldor
Senior Member
QC Team
Posts: 369
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Post by meldor on Jan 12, 2009 14:35:46 GMT -5
Meldor.. guess you havent' seen the theives shop yet. Plenty of stuff there to add to hide/ms. Also, in the context of your arguement, you are using frost giants as a prime example. Adding items to spot hiding people has nothing to do with your ability to fight against frost giants since we don't give them items with spot/listen bonuses Are you worried about PvP? To me it sounds like your more worried about PvP and or just the ability to be stealthed against other players but aren't comming out and saying it. First I will never see the rogue shop because I'm a good rogue so something should be done about this not all rogue are evil. I will continue my way with the weave as a scout when it's possible. I use the frost giant as an exemple, saying that everyone or every monsters with high AC and DR are really hard to kill for a medium bab character without buffs like greater heroism to increase our attack so the only way we can be good is to be stealthy and use sneak attack ... if monsters start to see hips there are nothing left for us. Half of the time DM summon monsters who are immune to sneak / critical hits on events like undead or golems etc.. I just wish these new items will not make rogue completly useless and as much as I was a rogue / ranger before now a pure rogue and a good one i would love to have access to items that increase my hide / ms aswell as some decent comparable weapons evil rogues has access in their guild. (maybe something with positive effects instead of negative)
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meldor
Senior Member
QC Team
Posts: 369
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Post by meldor on Jan 12, 2009 14:40:31 GMT -5
I think another thing people have to remember here is that rogues have enormous amount of skill points and since stealth is generally one of their specialties, they undoubtedly will go up a lot in hide and move silently. On the other hand, those who are spotting quite often are fighters and wizards who generally need to distribute their meager skill points elsewhere. To put everything into spot and listen would mean neglecting other skills in which they could use the points. In all my time playing this server, I have only had one character who has successfully detected HIPSters a few times... and yes, he's a bard. However, amplify doesn't do much good anyway to prevent pickpockets or the original sneak attack because the bard won't know to cast it until afterwards. Thats your choice if you put points else where a warrior or a mage shouldnt see someone hiding from the beginning. It's like saying I want to wear full plate and cast finger of death and use all mages buffs while I can sneak attack like a rogue..
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meldor
Senior Member
QC Team
Posts: 369
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Post by meldor on Jan 12, 2009 14:41:42 GMT -5
I dunno who keep giving me bad karma but I share my opinion in good manners.. I dont see the reason why I should deserve a smite. This is getting old.
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Post by Zealote on Jan 12, 2009 14:43:06 GMT -5
The items are not only for the guild or evil rogues. I dont know if the location is supposed to be disclosed, so just PM me about it. About giants and the like: The mobs wont change. All we are talking about is a way to have a counter to some skill or ability. Every ability, spell or skill has its counter IG. Any spell can be dispelled, if you're powerfull enough to do so. Any ability can be countered with some other ability or spell. Same thing goes for skills. Not everyone will be able to pot hipsters, but there should be a way to boost one's spot the same way the hipsters can boost stealth. But in order to see them, you will need to be EXPERT in spot/listen, like they are in hide/ms. Its not like everyone in the PW will get a ring or a hood and go around hunting hipsters.
PS: Dont look at me for the smites. I only do it when someone calls some other a bad name or something. Like offensive stuff. We're all just discussing. This area IS called general DISCUSSION right?
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Post by adzling on Jan 12, 2009 14:46:25 GMT -5
"Thats your choice if you put points else where a warrior or a mage shouldnt see someone hiding from the beginning. It's like saying I want to wear full plate and cast finger of death and use all mages buffs while I can sneak attack like a rogue.."
thank you meldor this is very well put. You can't be everything so better to focus on what you're good at (casting spells) than complaining that you can't do what the class isn't designed to do.
And don't worry about dolts who knock your karma because they disagree with you, your comments are respectful and well considered. Besides this isn't a popularity contest. But here let me give you some karma so you feel better ;-)
" but there should be a way to boost one's spot the same way the hipsters can boost stealth." THIS IS ALREADY IN-GAME PER COMMENTS FROM HNEFI AND I and I am willing to demonstrate this to you with a properly constructed build designed to spot people. This build will spot even the most dedicated hipster almost instantly.
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Post by Zealote on Jan 12, 2009 15:16:56 GMT -5
adzling, my post is just to help and stand by the Devs and Ice, as the scout items will be IG. And hnefi as I can see, dont know the rogue items like I do. And on top of that I have tested my spot against the top hipsters IG and failed with my max spot. I wont say who they are, but I am sure they agree with me, since one of them I can speak of here. Hakeem. And he is the one making the items for scouts. And as I've said, my character is a hipster, shadowdancer, and I am not afraid of the items. They should and will be available.
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Post by adzling on Jan 12, 2009 15:35:53 GMT -5
i have no idea what builds you have tested regarding spotting/hipstering however i'd be willing to bet you a beer that a properly constructed dedicated spotter will ALWAYS beat a well constructed dedicated hipster in a matter of a few rounds if not instantly absent significant item advantage for hipsters.
So far absent specific builds in this thread to back up these assertions that hipsters cannot be spotted i am highly dubious because the math does not lie.
It's hard to get past amplify/clairvoyance that confers +30 added to the +20 advantage that a hipster must maintain to remain hidden for more than a few rounds (given the multiple checks per round that search mode or ELF race confers).
Nothing posted in this thread directly addresses this and in fact all the comments to date have ignored this or stated incorrect assumptions.
It feels to me a lot like some people that do not understand the way bugsidian implemented these skills/checks and/or have a poor understanding of the ways to counter HIPS. This is completely understandable given the complex nature of NWN2 and d&d in general and has absolutely no bearing on the quality of the devs knowledge nor intentions in general.
We are talking about a highly specialized, nuanced and esoteric understanding of the underlying NWN2 game mechanics in one particular area. Both hnefi and I have many months dealing with this issue directly and are about as close to experts as you can be in this particular area.
I've made my point sufficiently I believe and I am willing to happily show any of the devs in-game exactly how a properly constructed spotter beats a similarly well-built and equipped hipster almost instantly (or at worst a matter of a few rounds).
Thanks for listening and I hope the devs take me or hnefi up on this. Seeing is believing (har that's a pun!)
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Post by hnefi on Jan 12, 2009 15:37:25 GMT -5
You keep saying "max spot", but how high is that? Do you use detection mode? Do you have high listen as well? Do you have high wisdom? Got any of the feats that improve spot/listen? Are you using long-term buffs and/or inspirations? What about the HiPSters you tested against - do they have the above equivalents?
You're certainly right that I don't know the stealth gear on this server. If the total achievable bonus to both stealth skills is higher than, say, 15 above the total achievable bonus to either of the detection skills, then I agree that there needs to be more and/or better detection equipment.
But remember, if you remove the gear, you can always reach just as high spot/listen as they can reach hide/ms. You only need to look at the bonus given from the gear to determine if the server is balanced; the game itself already favours detectors (and quite heavily), gear being equal.
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Post by Zealote on Jan 12, 2009 15:41:13 GMT -5
i have no idea what builds you have tested regarding spotting/hipstering however i'd be willing to bet you a beer that a properly constructed dedicated spotter will ALWAYS beat a well constructed dedicated hipster in a matter of a few rounds if not instantly absent significant item advantage for hipsters. So far absent specific builds in this thread to back up these assertions that hipsters cannot be spotted i am highly dubious because the math does not lie. It's hard to get past amplify/clairvoyance that confers +30 added to the +20 advantage that a hipster must maintain to remain hidden for more than a few rounds (given the multiple checks per round that search mode or ELF race confers). I agree with you man, you're not getting the point. A build dedicated to spot will see a build dedicated to hide, but not with the current item advantage that hide/ms has IG right now. Its a fact. And of course spells and bard songs can spot a hipster, but that is using spells vs skill. Im talking about skill vs skill. Pure and simple.
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Post by adzling on Jan 12, 2009 15:43:58 GMT -5
ok fair enough then! basically you're saying with multiple items equipped a stealther can get a +15MS or better skill advantage over a listener.
sorry for the insanely long ranting then and very much appreciate your (and the teams) civil tone.
carry on!
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Post by Zealote on Jan 12, 2009 15:45:30 GMT -5
ok fair enough then! basically you're saying with multiple items equipped a stealther can get a +15MS or better skill advantage over a listener. sorry for the insanely long ranting then and very much appreciate your (and the teams) civil tone. carry on! Preciselly. I'll PM you with my spot so you can see what im talking about.
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