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Post by DM Sir Carnifex on Jan 4, 2009 23:17:44 GMT -5
1) Do not patronize your playerbase I only state my opinions, not those of others. It's kind of hard to have a playerbase anyway when I don't get paid. All DMs here are player/DMs as a DM-only would quickly burnout from dealing with all the epics. But seriously, DMing may be fun, but it's also a lot of work and the DMs should be entitled to be able to play on the server without hassle at times should they so choose. (And as mentioned above, they don't get paid!) * * * To be on topic, the 3000 XP every two weeks from quests sounds good, though I think a few of them require quite a high level to complete or parties. Is this the total of all the quests? Or are just some of them going to reset? There's still the problem that certain PCs (Flaming Fist again *coughs*) don't have the option of doing many of those quests. I can see them taking the Maltz quest because they walk from Baldur's Gate to Beregost all the time anyway and they might as well do a public service ( ;D ), but others, like the orc head one, and Ragefast's quest are completely out of the question for them.
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Post by loudent2 on Jan 4, 2009 23:23:50 GMT -5
the DMs should be entitled to be able to play on the server without hassle at times should they so choose. Make a seperate login. You can have one that;s known as a DM and one that is only known as a player (as long as you don't let your ID slip). That way you can log on as a player and people won't know to bother you
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Post by DM Sir Carnifex on Jan 4, 2009 23:25:47 GMT -5
the DMs should be entitled to be able to play on the server without hassle at times should they so choose. Make a seperate login. You can have one that;s known as a DM and one that is only known as a player (as long as you don't let your ID slip). That way you can log on as a player and people won't know to bother you Actually, I've already stated many times that people are welcome to send questions, requests, etc., when I'm on as a player. It takes but a moment to log out and back in. Call it emergency stand by.
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Post by whenwizardswar on Jan 4, 2009 23:34:51 GMT -5
I am a lvl 17 character with three classes 6/4/7. All normal mobs are giving me 1 xp (goblins, orcs, ogres, Bugbears, Umber hulks, gnolls) The higher lvl mobs such as Minatours are giving me 8 xp per kill. Skeletons giving 30 xp, but I do not last long... Balance this with the excessive death penalty, and its nearly impossible to play solo any longer. I do not have the time to party up most of the time (three kids and a wife). I need to kill approximately 1,875 minatours to get my next level, but if I die trying Ill lose ~6500 xp for each time I die. I cannot call that even close to balanced. Please check this out. Erulaan From an RP view, once you get to the high levels 15+ theres really not much else to learn, so picking up new things comes slowly. And as the saying goes, the more power you have, the more you have to lose. At least from an rp point of view.
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mrdeadman
Senior Member
I'll thank you to keep your reality out of my fantasy.
Posts: 308
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Post by mrdeadman on Jan 4, 2009 23:45:42 GMT -5
I personally don't care what the XP system is. If I get 5 for something or 50, it really doesn't matter. This isn't because I'm a hardcore Rp'er or anything. In fact, I might appreciate the 5 point better, that way when I do get my Epic character I'll appreciate it a lot more than I would have if it was easy.
The people with less time to play than others really have to stop hating on the people with more time. It's a game, you play at your own pace and get what rewards out of it that you can. But, don't get all pissy and whiney because Joe Schmoe X has two hours more a day to play than you. There will never be a system that will ever let you catch up to their level at that rate.
I agree with Broham1 (nice list btw), character level really means nothing in an RP way. If you are in an event and decide you want your 4th level character to do something cool and tricky, message the DM with it. If the DM say, "whoa, thats way frikkin cool," he'll run with it I'm sure. And, who knows, all of a sudden the 4th level character beat the 18CR demon. Imagination has a lot of weight in the DnD world.
If we want a real death system, as I have said before, go back to the old pnp ways. You die and get res'd, you lose a point of CON. This can be restored through a Greater restoration, but only one per week.
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Post by DM Sir Carnifex on Jan 4, 2009 23:54:08 GMT -5
I agree with Broham1 (nice list btw), character level really means nothing in an RP way. If you are in an event and decide you want your 4th level character to do something cool and tricky, message the DM with it. If the DM say, "whoa, thats way frikkin cool," he'll run with it I'm sure. And, who knows, all of a sudden the 4th level character beat the 18CR demon. Imagination has a lot of weight in the DnD world. Very good point! I really like it when a player springs a surprise move on me as it adds much to the event that pre-planning cannot. Just the other day a really low-level PC changed the outcome of an event with one bluff roll. A higher level one might have tried fighting (in which case he would have died. *wicked grin*) So, yes, please do be creative in events (and at all times because you never know when a DM is watching). This is a way to get an extra bit of bonus XP because I (and other DMs) will add in something extra for this kind of thing.
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Post by Erulaan D'Anhoor on Jan 5, 2009 0:07:34 GMT -5
I personally don't care what the XP system is. If I get 5 for something or 50, it really doesn't matter. This isn't because I'm a hardcore Rp'er or anything. In fact, I might appreciate the 5 point better, that way when I do get my Epic character I'll appreciate it a lot more than I would have if it was easy. The people with less time to play than others really have to stop hating on the people with more time. It's a game, you play at your own pace and get what rewards out of it that you can. But, don't get all pissy and whiney because Joe Schmoe X has two hours more a day to play than you. There will never be a system that will ever let you catch up to their level at that rate. I agree with Broham1 (nice list btw), character level really means nothing in an RP way. If you are in an event and decide you want your 4th level character to do something cool and tricky, message the DM with it. If the DM say, "whoa, thats way frikkin cool," he'll run with it I'm sure. And, who knows, all of a sudden the 4th level character beat the 18CR demon. Imagination has a lot of weight in the DnD world. If we want a real death system, as I have said before, go back to the old pnp ways. You die and get res'd, you lose a point of CON. This can be restored through a Greater restoration, but only one per week. cool by me if we have a complete character wipe at the end of beta. That way everyone starts on even ground. I have been here since the first week. While I haven't played as much as others, I know the changes that have taken place, and the advantages to those who have been here awhile. Look: I like it here. ALOT...thats why I am getting pissy and whiney.
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Post by DM Cephas on Jan 5, 2009 0:56:14 GMT -5
I personally don't care what the XP system is. If I get 5 for something or 50, it really doesn't matter. This isn't because I'm a hardcore Rp'er or anything. In fact, I might appreciate the 5 point better, that way when I do get my Epic character I'll appreciate it a lot more than I would have if it was easy. The people with less time to play than others really have to stop hating on the people with more time. It's a game, you play at your own pace and get what rewards out of it that you can. But, don't get all pissy and whiney because Joe Schmoe X has two hours more a day to play than you. There will never be a system that will ever let you catch up to their level at that rate. I agree with Broham1 (nice list btw), character level really means nothing in an RP way. If you are in an event and decide you want your 4th level character to do something cool and tricky, message the DM with it. If the DM say, "whoa, thats way frikkin cool," he'll run with it I'm sure. And, who knows, all of a sudden the 4th level character beat the 18CR demon. Imagination has a lot of weight in the DnD world. If we want a real death system, as I have said before, go back to the old pnp ways. You die and get res'd, you lose a point of CON. This can be restored through a Greater restoration, but only one per week. cool by me if we have a complete character wipe at the end of beta. That way everyone starts on even ground. I have been here since the first week. While I haven't played as much as others, I know the changes that have taken place, and the advantages to those who have been here awhile. Look: I like it here. ALOT...thats why I am getting pissy and whiney. LOL. Well, it truly is good to have people passionate about the success of the server. Just make sure you pepper constructive criticisms with words of praise. Sometimes, the message gets lost and it just sounds like ungrateful whining. (Not implying that you're doing so since you are stating that you like it here. I'm just saying it in general. Hope you catch my drift. ) PS: There will be no server vault wipe as stated by the admin on numerous occasions. Besides, the playing field won't stay even for long anyway.
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Post by DM haunted on Jan 5, 2009 1:23:48 GMT -5
cool by me if we have a complete character wipe at the end of beta. That way everyone starts on even ground. I have been here since the first week. While I haven't played as much as others, I know the changes that have taken place, and the advantages to those who have been here awhile. Look: I like it here. ALOT...thats why I am getting pissy and whiney. LOL. Well, it truly is good to have people passionate about the success of the server. Just make sure you pepper constructive criticisms with words of praise. Sometimes, the message gets lost and it just sounds like ungrateful whining. (Not implying that you're doing so since you are stating that you like it here. I'm just saying it in general. Hope you catch my drift. ) PS: There will be no server vault wipe as stated by the admin on numerous occasions. Besides, the playing field won't stay even for long anyway. When I first came here I suggested a vault wipe...I was smited... Also, I have seen the xp change drastically since I have arrived months ago..So the staff is working on it,patience people.
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meldor
Senior Member
QC Team
Posts: 369
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Post by meldor on Jan 5, 2009 2:19:37 GMT -5
When I first came here I suggested a vault wipe...I was smited... Also, I have seen the xp change drastically since I have arrived months ago..So the staff is working on it,patience people. Same and Josh clearly said he will not wipe the vault.. but I understand you as I was in your boots a month and half ago. Like many said care about your character not the others.. there will always be higher and lower level no matter what.
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raenir
Senior Member
Smooching up to the Karma Lords
Quicken Disintigrate (Smile)
Posts: 469
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Post by raenir on Jan 5, 2009 3:16:27 GMT -5
I think its not the case that having large number of near epics or epics matter, you can only really grind pre UD to 22 23 anyways and most of the time when you reach that level everyone almost always starts a new character. Using the epic one for important Rp guild stuff.
Slower progress is one thing but with experience loss added in it makes it frustrating and hostile. Either experience earned should be increased with a higher loss of XP or with exp loss lowered or none at all and keeping the current system.
Whats also needed is either more DM led/controlled encounters with monster using their attacks intelligently and with tactics to encourage both grouping and rp or have more mixed and varied monster groups for post lvl 15 characters to slow down grind, you cant grind if your facing many different monster types.
I think the goal here is to create a fun welcoming freidnly server thats fair to everyone, powergaming is actively encouraged in 3.5 edition, if you dont want powergaming play 4th edition. Itll be next to impossible to get rid of it in any meaningful sense without harming others.
Lets look at Necrosis, a good heavy RP server, where it took 7 months for the servers resident power gamer to reach lvl 10. Do we really want to slow it down?
We have a situation where yes, alot of good rp can be done at low levels, but also people at the same time feel discouraged by all the already high level people and feel in a metagaming sense that they cant roleplay effectively or fairly because "if I say the wrong thing I am dead, even though my character would say it" eliminating the "Challenge rating etc" could help, but then again people do exude power in D&D...
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davidb
Senior Member
Posts: 300
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Post by davidb on Jan 5, 2009 5:44:21 GMT -5
I support the changes. Hard way, long way, always!!!!
To Erulaan:
Numbers are meaningless. Is level 30 very high? if the PW was designed to reach 30 easily, we would have people crying over not being able to reach 40, like they do in their previously beloved servers. And if BG had a cap on 40, then we would have a sour debate about where is the +7 gear all other servers have.
With the new rules, you live in a server where a level 17 is high level. So you're already high, congrats! you're now higher than Drittz.
DnD system was designed with 20 levels in mind. Spells are scaled up to that level, and more importantly, if you choose to multiclass you can't have full potential in two classes, which is a terrible danger to balance. The less we have an average level over 20, the better. As soon as we all have the same rules, enjoy the game and keep improving our character, who cares if we ding in 5 days or in 10?
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atlas
Active Member
Posts: 177
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Post by atlas on Jan 5, 2009 8:51:34 GMT -5
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Post by goggmagogg on Jan 5, 2009 9:08:29 GMT -5
I haven't played much on BG as yet, but I have read the forum's quite a bit, and I thought that I could contribute to this discussion. I played and DMed for several years on a NWN persistent world which I feel had a good balance in terms of reward for effort and reward for RP. I shall just outline the setup without commenting whether it is better or worse than that of BG. Keep in mind NWN had a level cap of 40 so the numbers I give should be scaled for NWN2.
Firstly, there was no penalty for death below level 5. This was specifically put in place to NOT discourage new players.
Above level 5 there was a 5% XP penalty, and a 10% Gold penalty for death, but the XP per kill was sufficient for a casual player to gain 2-3 levels per month without needing to grind. Of course any power levelers could accelerate this to get epic in a matter of weeks. But because the reward was sufficient to not require grinding, the DM staff were empowered to penalise any persistent camping or grinding (after discussion with the player and other staff). This allowed players to progress through mid levels at a reasonable pace.
However, once you reached high levels (in this case high level is accepted to be level 30+), the encounters on the "general" world were such that no mob would give more than 1 XP per kill. Yes you could grind out levels, but the time required to grind out level 31 and above became a BIG deterrent.
To cater for the 30+ characters, there were 2 areas specifically designed for high level parties. By this I mean even a maxed character could not survive more than the first 2 or 3 encounters. To be able to progress through the area, you needed a well balanced party of 3 or more 30+ characters. The high level players could still get their XP, but they couldn't solo or grind these areas. Eventually, there were some characters in their mid 30's levels, but it had taken them months if not years to get there. In my 3 years on the server I only ever saw 1 level 40 character.
And because XP was so difficult for the high levels to obtain, death had real meaning for them.
RP was done by characters of all levels, but mostly mid teens to mid twenties. It was scripted to give more XP when in a party than when solo, and also there was a script that gave XP when in proximity of other players for a period of time, so you could get XP even when chewing the fat over an ale, but the script disabled if there was no activity so you couldn’t just park yourself and go AFK.
My last comment relates to my first point above. My first character was a Half-Orc fighter, specced for pure melee damage. He progressed to level 3 without much trouble, but my favourite type of character is the rogue, and over the holiday season I started a new rogue. I have had a such difficult time trying to get him up a couple of levels. He hasn’t done anything but kill wolves, and dies if there are more than one wolf, thus losing XP. This is very discouraging. If he had been my first character I suspect I would have left BG to find a more beginner friendly world. It feels that BG is suited mostly to power builders, the beta period should be used to “balance” these type of things, as I’m sure BG will become one of the best and most popular PWs, when it is ready.
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davidb
Senior Member
Posts: 300
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Post by davidb on Jan 5, 2009 10:03:16 GMT -5
I haven't played much on BG as yet, but I have read the forum's quite a bit, and I thought that I could contribute to this discussion. I played and DMed for several years on a NWN persistent world which I feel had a good balance in terms of reward for effort and reward for RP. I shall just outline the setup without commenting whether it is better or worse than that of BG. Keep in mind NWN had a level cap of 40 so the numbers I give should be scaled for NWN2. Firstly, there was no penalty for death below level 5. This was specifically put in place to NOT discourage new players. Above level 5 there was a 5% XP penalty, and a 10% Gold penalty for death, but the XP per kill was sufficient for a casual player to gain 2-3 levels per month without needing to grind. Of course any power levelers could accelerate this to get epic in a matter of weeks. But because the reward was sufficient to not require grinding, the DM staff were empowered to penalise any persistent camping or grinding (after discussion with the player and other staff). This allowed players to progress through mid levels at a reasonable pace. However, once you reached high levels (in this case high level is accepted to be level 30+), the encounters on the "general" world were such that no mob would give more than 1 XP per kill. Yes you could grind out levels, but the time required to grind out level 31 and above became a BIG deterrent. To cater for the 30+ characters, there were 2 areas specifically designed for high level parties. By this I mean even a maxed character could not survive more than the first 2 or 3 encounters. To be able to progress through the area, you needed a well balanced party of 3 or more 30+ characters. The high level players could still get their XP, but they couldn't solo or grind these areas. Eventually, there were some characters in their mid 30's levels, but it had taken them months if not years to get there. In my 3 years on the server I only ever saw 1 level 40 character. And because XP was so difficult for the high levels to obtain, death had real meaning for them. RP was done by characters of all levels, but mostly mid teens to mid twenties. It was scripted to give more XP when in a party than when solo, and also there was a script that gave XP when in proximity of other players for a period of time, so you could get XP even when chewing the fat over an ale, but the script disabled if there was no activity so you couldn’t just park yourself and go AFK. My last comment relates to my first point above. My first character was a Half-Orc fighter, specced for pure melee damage. He progressed to level 3 without much trouble, but my favourite type of character is the rogue, and over the holiday season I started a new rogue. I have had a such difficult time trying to get him up a couple of levels. He hasn’t done anything but kill wolves, and dies if there are more than one wolf, thus losing XP. This is very discouraging. If he had been my first character I suspect I would have left BG to find a more beginner friendly world. It feels that BG is suited mostly to power builders, the beta period should be used to “balance” these type of things, as I’m sure BG will become one of the best and most popular PWs, when it is ready. Nicely explained and completely agreed.
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