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Post by DM Cephas on Jan 4, 2009 20:30:31 GMT -5
and level 15 in two days? thats nuts. try a level per week. really, after a year on tfr it's apparent that grinders and griefers can be greatly reduced if you are willing to make the hard choices as dms. the dms on tfr were not making the hard choices (or weren't empowered to) and so the server quickly became over-run with grinders who quickly left as soon as they started and rp greatly suffered. however you decide to do it make death mean something. i like the 5% death penalty for everyone sub-epic. i would introduce perma-death rules for epics only. without it you will find your server overrun with epic dolts who don't take death seriously. you're in beta, now is the time to be adventurous and test out different ideas for a month or so and tweak until right. my # one advice, DO NOT give in to players demanding things are easier. Once you do this everything becomes meaningless. Let them go to TFR, that's as easy as pie and a nice place for grinders to spend time. I think 5% death penalty across the board is good --- even for epics. 5% penalty for an epic is painful. I have an epic PC that died when he respawned in the middle of 3 minotaurs without buffs after a server crash. I lost 15K! Believe me, that meant something (This also means that I won't take much pity on a PC that loses xp from a server crash or other game mechanic bug) With a lack of solo-grindable areas, epics that got there because of grinding and no RP will find themselves bored really quickly and create a new PC. I've seen it multiple times before. Most epics I run into still from when I first started are the ones with RP subtance. Pure grinders got bored and moved on to new servers or new PC's. I agree though that BG:TSCC should be a step above TFR in terms of RP. Let TFR have the pure grinders that want to get to lvl 30. I say the Frost Giants should be the peak of areas that are pseudo-grindable.
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meldor
Senior Member
QC Team
Posts: 369
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Post by meldor on Jan 4, 2009 20:37:19 GMT -5
I think 5% death penalty across the board is good --- even for epics. 5% penalty for an epic is painful. I have an epic PC that died when he respawned in the middle of 3 minotaurs without buffs after a server crash. I lost 15K! Believe me, that meant something (This also means that I won't take much pity on a PC that loses xp from a server crash or other game mechanic bug) With a lack of solo-grindable areas, epics that got there because of grinding and no RP will find themselves bored really quickly and create a new PC. I've seen it multiple times before. Most epics I run into still from when I first started are the ones with RP subtance. Pure grinders got bored and moved on to new servers or new PC's. I agree though that BG:TSCC should be a step above TFR in terms of RP. Let TFR have the pure grinders that want to get to lvl 30. I say the Frost Giants should be the peak of areas that are pseudo-grindable. I dont mind rping to lvl up past 20 but so far I couldnt find a single DM event that gave me xp since before Christmas. Yesterday I was invited to an event party in the UD and got booted as we reached the city fun fun... Seriously, what should I do to get some fun going ?
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Post by Erulaan D'Anhoor on Jan 4, 2009 21:16:49 GMT -5
With a lack of solo-grindable areas, epics that got there because of grinding and no RP will find themselves bored really quickly and create a new PC. I've seen it multiple times before. Most epics I run into still from when I first started are the ones with RP subtance. Pure grinders got bored and moved on to new servers or new PC's. Ok so the aim of this server is to cull players who like to solo, or players who aren't into RPing to certain players/dm's liking? Should a lvl 17 3 multiclass character (such as the one I play) who actually likes to RP, but hasn't found the opportunity to do so yet IN FULL be driven away because its going to take weeks of grinding stupid worthless 1 xp mobs to attain a lvl or 2? Really? I need to kill 15,000 Orcs to get level 18? Do I need to participate in fifteen 1,000 xp DM events to get to the next level? Do I need to spend 4 hour chunks of time gathering a party of characters who are not properly aligned, or have any interest in my character other than party xp to get to the next level? I do not have the time to sit in front of my computer for 8 hour stretches. I am lucky to get a few hours per week. I have a family, a career, and other hobbies. I am a gamer who likes a good NWN setting (which I believe we can have here) I played on AOL in the early 90's when Neverwinter Nights was an 8 bit game. I have been a DM and Staffer on 2 other PW's. In my opinion, a PW that cannot support maxxed characters, and keep them happy, and busy, is doomed. For reference on the old AOL server, most players characters were maxxed. it was through RP and extensive guild systems that the game flourished. There was literally a HUGE line to get into a 250 player game 24 hours a day. Do not cut off the support for players who want to advance in a timely manner. The best RP is to come when many PC's are getting close to maxxed. I know its only beta here, and I truly have respect for the staff as I know a few of them from previous PW experiences, but its time to have some frank conversations about the direction and future of Baulders Gate TSCC. rant off...I need a break
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Post by blametherogue on Jan 4, 2009 21:31:23 GMT -5
With a lack of solo-grindable areas, epics that got there because of grinding and no RP will find themselves bored really quickly and create a new PC. I've seen it multiple times before. Most epics I run into still from when I first started are the ones with RP subtance. Pure grinders got bored and moved on to new servers or new PC's. Ok so the aim of this server is to cull players who like to solo, or players who aren't into RPing to certain players/dm's liking? Should a lvl 17 3 multiclass character (such as the one I play) who actually likes to RP, but hasn't found the opportunity to do so yet IN FULL be driven away because its going to take weeks of grinding stupid worthless 1 xp mobs to attain a lvl or 2? Really? I need to kill 15,000 Orcs to get level 18? Do I need to participate in fifteen 1,000 xp DM events to get to the next level? Do I need to spend 4 hour chunks of time gathering a party of characters who are not properly aligned, or have any interest in my character other than party xp to get to the next level? I do not have the time to sit in front of my computer for 8 hour stretches. I am lucky to get a few hours per week. I have a family, a career, and other hobbies. I am a gamer who likes a good NWN setting (which I believe we can have here) I played on AOL in the early 90's when Neverwinter Nights was an 8 bit game. I have been a DM and Staffer on 2 other PW's. In my opinion, a PW that cannot support maxxed characters, and keep them happy, and busy, is doomed. For reference on the old AOL server, most players characters were maxxed. it was through RP and extensive guild systems that the game flourished. There was literally a HUGE line to get into a 250 player game 24 hours a day. Do not cut off the support for players who want to advance in a timely manner. The best RP is to come when many PC's are getting close to maxxed. I know its only beta here, and I truly have respect for the staff as I know a few of them from previous PW experiences, but its time to have some frank conversations about the direction and future of Baulders Gate TSCC. rant off...I need a break total agreement. have some karma
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Post by DM Sir Carnifex on Jan 4, 2009 21:32:54 GMT -5
Should a lvl 17 3 multiclass character (such as the one I play) who actually likes to RP, but hasn't found the opportunity to do so yet IN FULL be driven away because its going to take weeks of grinding stupid worthless 1 xp mobs to attain a lvl or 2? Really? I need to kill 15,000 Orcs to get level 18? Do I need to participate in fifteen 1,000 xp DM events to get to the next level? Do I need to spend 4 hour chunks of time gathering a party of characters who are not properly aligned, or have any interest in my character other than party xp to get to the next level? Pardon me for being blunt here, but if by level seventeen you haven't found a reason to RP your character, I'm not sure if you ever will find a reason. Sure, I can understand wanting to level some (we all do) but making your RP based solely on being an ultra-epic seems, well, pointless. If I ever have a PC reach level 30, that'll be the time I retire the PC, if not earlier, because RP is easier (in my opinion) at lower levels. The best RP is to come when many PC's are getting close to maxxed. Much of best RP I have seen in my time on this server has been from low levels. If the best RP only comes when characters are maxed, then you'll never see anything of that type from me because I'll never max out my characters. I'm not exactly sure what you mean in this instance anyway. Are you trying to say the PCs have to have epic one-hit death spells, a thousand HP, uber equipment, and underdeveloped characters (from not RPing until a high level) to be able to do their best RP? Actually, to be VERY blunt, some of the WORST RP I have ever seen has been done by epics because they act as if the world belongs to them. I'm not trying to start an argument here, but I really feel like slamming my head into a brick wall because so many people insist that they can't RP a low-level character. (note that this was about RP and has nothing to do with anyone's views on the whole XP system.)
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Post by blametherogue on Jan 4, 2009 21:39:46 GMT -5
for the love of all that is holy.......ASK THE PLAYERS
ask us.....we play here, we live here.... if a staff makes changes to a pw that the majority of the player base doesn't like, or worse yet, absolutely hates....you lose your playerbase
anyone else here play star wars galaxies? that's what SOE did. they did a whole "combat ugrade" that changed everything about classes and the way they worked. the playerbase almost all in unison yelled NO. SOE did it anyway. now SWG is going the way of the do do bird.
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Post by Erulaan D'Anhoor on Jan 4, 2009 21:54:40 GMT -5
DM Sir Carnifex quoted below:
"Pardon me for being blunt here, but if by level seventeen you haven't found a reason to RP your character, I'm not sure if you ever will find a reason."
Thanks Mr. DM guy. (sarcasm in full effect)
I have ample reason to RP my character, and I have done so decently (those few who have had interactions with me can likely vouch for it). I also have some major plans in the works that will help this server continue and enhance its role play beyond the usual "/em's robe whispers and ruffles as /em walks through the breezy plain".
Let me give you some friendly advise.
1) Do not patronize your playerbase
2) Choose to be a player or a DM. Do not do both.
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Post by DM Cephas on Jan 4, 2009 22:07:08 GMT -5
Meldor, I hear ya and my PC is in the same boat. Even though I'm a DM, I don't necessarily get special privileges. It can be hit or miss. When a DM isn't online and I don't have RP opportunities, I tend to log on as a DM and try to share some love. Christmas time had a lot of ppl on vacation and with family, I'm already seeing DM's log back on. Be patient. Erulaan, blametherogue, Although I hear your frustrations, you have to look at the other side of the coin. If leveling is too easy, all the powergamers will have epic level PC's in a week (yes, it happens). At the same time, have you considered that the quest system resets now every 1 or 2 weeks? That means a regular cycle of quests (current total of 3000xp is from what I hear) a casual gamer can take advantage of. As time goes on and more quests are put into play, the casual gamer will find a steady flow of xp whether or not they grind or catch a DM online. And this applies to the epic PC's as well. As for the guild systems, the players need to take initiative, put some thought into it, and start one. When I was a player, I saw the large vacuum when it came to guilds so I started the Weave Masters. Ppl are more than welcome to copy the design to help encourage guilds but there are only so many DM's. When I made DM, I was too ambitious and tried to run the WM's (as a player), the Nature's guild, and the Thieves Guild. I spread myself so thin and decided to focus on two first and get players in leadership roles to help make the guilds be more self sustaining. I kind of think of guildmasters as mini-DM's. Anyway, your thoughts are considered and we thank you for your opinions. It's just that we have to think of the whole server population as a whole as well. Hopefully, my points make sense. On Edit (PS): This was being typed out before the responses to SirC so I'm not trying to kiss up. LOL
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Post by blametherogue on Jan 4, 2009 22:15:27 GMT -5
Meldor, I hear ya and my PC is in the same boat. Even though I'm a DM, I don't necessarily get special privileges. It can be hit or miss. When a DM isn't online and I don't have RP opportunities, I tend to log on as a DM and try to share some love. Christmas time had a lot of ppl on vacation and with family, I'm already seeing DM's log back on. Be patient. Erulaan, blametherogue, Although I hear your frustrations, you have to look at the other side of the coin. If leveling is too easy, all the powergamers will have epic level PC's in a week (yes, it happens). At the same time, have you considered that the quest system resets now every 1 or 2 weeks? That means a regular cycle of quests (current total of 3000xp is from what I hear) a casual gamer can take advantage of. As time goes on and more quests are put into play, the casual gamer will find a steady flow of xp whether or not they grind or catch a DM online. And this applies to the epic PC's as well. As for the guild systems, the players need to take initiative, put some thought into it, and start one. When I was a player, I saw the large vacuum when it came to guilds so I started the Weave Masters. Ppl are more than welcome to copy the design to help encourage guilds but there are only so many DM's. When I made DM, I was too ambitious and tried to run the WM's (as a player), the Nature's guild, and the Thieves Guild. I spread myself so thin and decided to focus on two first and get players in leadership roles to help make the guilds be more self sustaining. Anyway, your thoughts are considered and we thank you for your opinions. It's just that we have to think of the whole server population as a whole as well. Hopefully, my points make sense. yes, when more quests are added. if mob xp was going to be lowered, why not wait until there were more quests available to still allow casual players steady xp? as far as whether our suggestions are taken into consideration? i'm still not sure. the staff would have my trust and utmost respect if they flat asked the players what they wanted, and acted on our wishes. perhaps a vote is in order for major changes? i've already seen threads where it was stated that this is that way, and that is this way, because someone on the staff wanted it that way, not because the players wanted it that way.
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Post by shorn on Jan 4, 2009 22:21:14 GMT -5
For a PC to reach epic with the current system, they will have to be around for awhile as the resetting quests will be the safest way to gain xp. If one were to gain about 3000xp every two weeks on quests, 1000 for grinding, and 3000 for events, the end result would be gaining a new level about once every 6 weeks without having to spend hours left-clicking monsters. I like my rp, dont get me wrong. Grinding can be ok sometimes too, at the right times with the right people. But the prospect of leveling once a month, at a rate of just about your whole epic bracket in 1 year, makes me want to vomit up my intestines while i fornicate myself with a rabid porquipine.
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Post by loudent2 on Jan 4, 2009 22:35:53 GMT -5
as far as whether our suggestions are taken into consideration? i'm still not sure. the staff would have my trust and utmost respect if they flat asked the players what they wanted, and acted on our wishes. perhaps a vote is in order for major changes? You seem to be under the impression that there will be any sort of consensus. You can, most likely, obtain a simple majority but you're pretty much guaranteeing to alienate half the player base. Player input should always be considered but, ultimately, the devs have to stay true to their vision.
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Post by DM Cephas on Jan 4, 2009 22:38:28 GMT -5
Meldor, I hear ya and my PC is in the same boat. Even though I'm a DM, I don't necessarily get special privileges. It can be hit or miss. When a DM isn't online and I don't have RP opportunities, I tend to log on as a DM and try to share some love. Christmas time had a lot of ppl on vacation and with family, I'm already seeing DM's log back on. Be patient. Erulaan, blametherogue, Although I hear your frustrations, you have to look at the other side of the coin. If leveling is too easy, all the powergamers will have epic level PC's in a week (yes, it happens). At the same time, have you considered that the quest system resets now every 1 or 2 weeks? That means a regular cycle of quests (current total of 3000xp is from what I hear) a casual gamer can take advantage of. As time goes on and more quests are put into play, the casual gamer will find a steady flow of xp whether or not they grind or catch a DM online. And this applies to the epic PC's as well. As for the guild systems, the players need to take initiative, put some thought into it, and start one. When I was a player, I saw the large vacuum when it came to guilds so I started the Weave Masters. Ppl are more than welcome to copy the design to help encourage guilds but there are only so many DM's. When I made DM, I was too ambitious and tried to run the WM's (as a player), the Nature's guild, and the Thieves Guild. I spread myself so thin and decided to focus on two first and get players in leadership roles to help make the guilds be more self sustaining. Anyway, your thoughts are considered and we thank you for your opinions. It's just that we have to think of the whole server population as a whole as well. Hopefully, my points make sense. yes, when more quests are added. if mob xp was going to be lowered, why not wait until there were more quests available to still allow casual players steady xp? as far as whether our suggestions are taken into consideration? i'm still not sure. the staff would have my trust and utmost respect if they flat asked the players what they wanted, and acted on our wishes. To paraphrase JLF2N (the admin) "Patience, my friend. We are still in beta." There will be hits and misses. That's part of being in a beta. There are some rewards such as getting items that will be later deemed too powerful or uber xp (for the really old players) or something else. And then there are the disadvantages... frustrations on the "misses", learning curve for the builders and scripters (e.g. lack of quests, lack of rogue items, etc.), and so on. Your thoughts are being listened too and being weighed. Definitely bring up the points and counterpoints. JLF2N and staff will see them. Votes will be considered if it came about but JLF2N has a vision for the server also so what is decided upon will be dictated as that as well. (e.g. If people vote for an action server, it won't happen since the admin already set the theme for this one, etc.) Anyway, to reiterate: Please be patient. We're in beta
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Post by emolas on Jan 4, 2009 22:43:16 GMT -5
I'm not trying to pick on you but you have two points that I would like to address: Meldor, If leveling is too easy, all the powergamers will have epic level PC's in a week (yes, it happens). If every creature on the server only gave 1 XP per kill, a powergamer would still be epic in a ridiculously short time. Low XP rewards only punish casual gamers. At the same time, have you considered that the quest system resets now every 1 or 2 weeks? That means a regular cycle of quests (current total of 3000xp is from what I hear) a casual gamer can take advantage of. As time goes on and more quests are put into play, the casual gamer will find a steady flow of xp whether or not they grind or catch a DM online. And this applies to the epic PC's as well. How many of these quests can be completed by a solo character under 5th level? Just walking to Beregost for Maltz takes more than that. Everyone keeps saying that levels don't matter and it's all in how you play it but if that were true, why even bother having levels or skills or abilities or any of that? Make all players farmers who stand around talking all day about their tragic past or whatever it is they want to do. Some people would enjoy a game like that but I'm sure the majority of players want their characters to grow, evolve and get better so they are able to accomplish more things as they play and they don't want to wait a month to be able to get that next step in their character progression. I'm not saying everyone needs to run up to epic in two weeks but some kind of logarithm that lets characters advance more and more slowly as they get higher would be good.
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meldor
Senior Member
QC Team
Posts: 369
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Post by meldor on Jan 4, 2009 22:46:17 GMT -5
I would be happy to have 3k xp worth of quests available every 2 weeks.
In the UD there is only 1 quest and it's worth no xp.
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Post by DM Cephas on Jan 4, 2009 23:00:35 GMT -5
I'm not trying to pick on you but you have two points that I would like to address: Meldor, If leveling is too easy, all the powergamers will have epic level PC's in a week (yes, it happens). If every creature on the server only gave 1 XP per kill, a powergamer would still be epic in a ridiculously short time. Low XP rewards only punish casual gamers. At the same time, have you considered that the quest system resets now every 1 or 2 weeks? That means a regular cycle of quests (current total of 3000xp is from what I hear) a casual gamer can take advantage of. As time goes on and more quests are put into play, the casual gamer will find a steady flow of xp whether or not they grind or catch a DM online. And this applies to the epic PC's as well. How many of these quests can be completed by a solo character under 5th level? Just walking to Beregost for Maltz takes more than that. Everyone keeps saying that levels don't matter and it's all in how you play it but if that were true, why even bother having levels or skills or abilities or any of that? Make all players farmers who stand around talking all day about their tragic past or whatever it is they want to do. Some people would enjoy a game like that but I'm sure the majority of players want their characters to grow, evolve and get better so they are able to accomplish more things as they play and they don't want to wait a month to be able to get that next step in their character progression. I'm not saying everyone needs to run up to epic in two weeks but some kind of logarithm that lets characters advance more and more slowly as they get higher would be good. 1) XP disappears once you're over a certain level over the mob. 2) Re: quests under 5th level, I concur. But as mentioned, be patient. Besides, you can always ask a higher lvl player to help you. More opportunity for RP too so it's an added bonus
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