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Post by Iceshard on Aug 6, 2008 20:35:16 GMT -5
it goes both ways repuls.. the higher level ECL's (Drow, and deep gnomes) have been attacking the lowbies, as have the higher level non ECL's been trying to retaliate. Basically you are caught in the middle of a war. Now left unchecked your gnome can become a bigger issue, what is happening are players acting out against ECL's and treating them like they should. Your life on the surface should be increasingly difficult.. dont think all is pretty and equal rights for the ECL's, especially the UD's... -Ice
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laurk
Active Member
Posts: 105
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Post by laurk on Aug 6, 2008 21:50:23 GMT -5
Are deep gnomes evil? Do most surfacers have even an a clue as to what a svirfneblin is? Don't they just look like regular gnomes with rugged pebbly skin? I would assume a deep gnome would sort of look like a regular gnome with a bad skin disease. Dont get me wrong, im certainly not taking sides or anything, im just saying... I could see slaughtering a drow on sight.. or someone with horns, but im pretty sure deep gnomes are not an automatic fear/loath/kill.
I could very well be wrong.
Laurk
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Post by DEV Driller on Aug 7, 2008 5:55:49 GMT -5
This server is supposed to be RP-lite. RP is encouraged but not enforced remember? In this context, the above sounds like griefing not RP.
Thanks, -driller
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Post by Sojourn on Aug 7, 2008 6:24:01 GMT -5
Yeah I agree with driller guys...lets keep it rp lite, we are not hardcore. If you see a drow or duergar or whatever, just leave them alone. They are people behind the characters too and kill on sight isn't fun for anyone. This server is RP LITE. Lets not get hardcore with the rp here.
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Post by norikcain on Aug 7, 2008 6:47:17 GMT -5
Good to hear.
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secretmask
Active Member
Retired Dungeon Master
Posts: 143
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Post by secretmask on Aug 7, 2008 8:55:09 GMT -5
Yeeey *lemmar breathes deeply hidden under his rock, Still weary of his hunters*
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tlantl
Active Member
Posts: 198
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Post by tlantl on Aug 7, 2008 15:55:21 GMT -5
The deep gnome, also known as Sverfneblin are a neutral underdark race that are reclusive and virtually unknown by surface dwellers. They are the mortal enemies of the Drow Mind flayers and Kuo-toa. The 3.5 edition monster manual states their alignment as 'usually neutral.'
I am by no means a scholar of forgotten realms lore, but I have seen nothing considered canon about them or the way they are perceived by the surface population. I believe that they might be mistaken for Duergar and have difficulties, but they are supposed to be visibly different from dwarves. Surface gnomes have no legends about them being malevolent.
Duergar are seldom found above ground and would be nearly unheard of by humans and others who live on the surface. Dwarves would instantly recognize them since they are related, and a deep enmity exists between them. Since they seldom raid on the surface they are unlikely to trigger a kill on sight reaction from the average person unless they were xenophobic. Then they will attack anyone who looks different.
People who live in close proximity to orc clans will likely hate half orcs and want to kill them on sight.
I don't know what large populations of Elves are found in the Baldur's Gate area, so I can't comment on the frequency of encounters with Drow Elves. I imagine that unless there are large elven communities in the area Drow will not be feared by the people living in the area as much as being a curiosity and regarded with suspicion. (Awe, revulsion, fear?)
Sure it is fine to play these encounters without using a little thought before attacking these abominations but where did your character learn what these creatures look like, what they do, and how they think? Racial hatreds are likely the sources of most disputes. If I play an elf I won't automatically hate, and want to immediately kill, a duergar I might encounter since I don't have dwarven connections or much care for them at all. the duergar is not going to suffer at my hands unless he does something to deserve it.
I guess the point is that this which hunt that seems to be taking place is being fueled more by people's perception of the hostility between these groups than their own character's experience with them.
that said, anyone playing these abominations who actively seek out player versus player conflict to cause this kind of chaos will be treated with extreme prejudice and taken to task.
all I ask is that you leave my characters out of it since I don't much care for this form of drama.
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Post by DEV Driller on Aug 7, 2008 16:18:05 GMT -5
The paragraph below is the main thing that stood out to me reading this thread. It sounds like griefing to me. Thanks, -driller This server is supposed to be RP-lite. RP is encouraged but not enforced remember? In this context, the above sounds like griefing not RP. Thanks, -driller Right but if Ii begin RP and the char starts casting spells... ok I will let you buff to holy hell and then you can talk smack to me.... I've seen it happen and the end result is not good. Send me a tell or say OOC i dont want to fight, but if i see you start buffing my attack is self defense. How is that grief? Even though I see drow and the like as KOS, I actually DO NOT attack them on sight. My first goal has always been to make the player leave "flee". Guys like Lemmar, sorry bro but ya turned a Flaming Fist into a chicken and Maddock, I just can't see how thier chars would be tolerated. Im not saying attack them on sight everytime, but sure as hell not party up and do some quests together. *edit-in hindsight regarding rodo, it was wrong for me to follow you thru zones, as you did "Flee". My reasoning for doing it was two-fold. A) casters will often zone rest/buff and return. B) deep gnomes can be very powerful and that challenge rating can lie. In the future I will make an effort to try an play out hostile situations with more RP before violence, however, I still see buffing or threats as just cause.
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Post by otomotetsuo on Aug 7, 2008 16:26:30 GMT -5
I experienced an uncomfortable situation recently that relates to this topic.
I would just like to say, that being talked down to, from one character (perfectly in character, might I add) to another is a good enough way for someone to get the hint that you aren't their favorite person. The point in time when the situation gets out of hand and crosses a line is when they take the trouble to open up the player list and click on the dislike button. What message am I supposed to get from this other than to expect that an attack is imminent and my character's health is in danger? I really am sincerely asking you - because I don't push this button unless I am about to PVP with someone - call me crazy, but that's how I do it.
I am intentionally leaving names out of it, because I would honestly like to hear what other players here think about it without tacking on any personal influences.
Plainly, what is the message that someone is trying to send to another player when they hit the Dislike button other than, very clearly, "I am one click away from attacking you." ?
I have been, for the most part ignoring what seem like demands from certain players and DM's alike that I must hate the UD's and I must kill them on sight or I am a traitor to my kind and to my god and to the world on and on ad nauseum.
There is such a thing as alignment guys - unless you skipped that section of your DMG it is a pretty strict guideline for players to follow in order to properly 'act out' a certain character concept.
I would challenge you to find a case of a lawful good cleric striking down another sentient creature, in cold blood and without provocation, who should not take an alignment hit either closer to chaotic or closer to evil (or both, more likely). (I am clearly not talking about monsters - I am talking about demihuman races - that have the ability to talk things out and can be rationalized with.) The simple fact of it is - just like in real life - the average person does not have the stomach, the bravado, the craze, the bloodlust, or just plain old inclination to kill another living being and you can take this statement very far indeed - because even with provocation there are still a great number of people who would never (realistically) go through with something like this. Not everyone can or wants to - period.
Try and repackage it how you will - there is no cut and dry decree that you can make to say that all members of one race must cut down any member of another race. And the very important, operative word here should be MUST! (Again I am talking about human and demihuman characters, etc.)
To tell me, the player of an Elven character that I, without any regard to what my chosen idea or wishes for this character concept are, inarguably MUST do anything at all - is completely against the spirit of roleplaying, IMO and Dungeons and Dragons as a whole.
This issue has caused a considerable division among our players. This is, of course, in full recognition of the fact that I am not an elder of this project, not by a long shot - but any one of you reading this thread that can't see the tension it is causing to this fledgling (relatively speaking) module are really missing something very obvious.
It is my simple request of all of you, that you proceed without extremism in your statements and implementation of these ideas from here on out. If you cannot do that, then I for one will be the first to discontinue logging on to this server for the duration.
Frustrated-
-Otomo Tetsuo
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Post by shawnystyle77 on Aug 7, 2008 16:41:01 GMT -5
The paragraph below is the main thing that stood out to me reading this thread. It sounds like griefing to me. Thanks, -driller Right but if Ii begin RP and the char starts casting spells... ok I will let you buff to holy hell and then you can talk smack to me.... I've seen it happen and the end result is not good. Send me a tell or say OOC i dont want to fight, but if i see you start buffing my attack is self defense. How is that grief? Even though I see drow and the like as KOS, I actually DO NOT attack them on sight. My first goal has always been to make the player leave "flee". Guys like Lemmar, sorry bro but ya turned a Flaming Fist into a chicken and Maddock, I just can't see how thier chars would be tolerated. Im not saying attack them on sight everytime, but sure as hell not party up and do some quests together. *edit-in hindsight regarding rodo, it was wrong for me to follow you thru zones, as you did "Flee". My reasoning for doing it was two-fold. A) casters will often zone rest/buff and return. B) deep gnomes can be very powerful and that challenge rating can lie. In the future I will make an effort to try an play out hostile situations with more RP before violence, however, I still see buffing or threats as just cause. It may sound like GRIEF but it is not. It is simply acting on fear/mistrust of odd races. This =/= pvp. More times than not it's name calling and fear. Maybe our definitions of GRIEF differ. Grief to me is killing over and over, or hounding players and the such. All I am doing and advocating is this, you see a Drow or someone with horns or flaming hair, act accordingly. Wether it's running and getting the guards, calling names and making insults or fighting. When I said make their lives hell =/= grief them. *but as I have stated I will make more of attempt to refrain from violence if this is seen as grief. Sometimes it is hard to RP the hostility though when Players refuse to back down, even continuing insults and threats after they have been set "hostile".
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jasonpauldegraaf
Senior Member
"There is a crack in everything God has made." -Emerson
Posts: 331
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Post by jasonpauldegraaf on Aug 7, 2008 17:15:16 GMT -5
Agreed,
As fellow traveler with shawnystyle77, I've never seen him grief a player, and all of his PVP has been IC and coupled with excellent RP. He's never used personal attacks, insults, and he's never killed over and over again.
If you make a UD race or a Tiefling, accept the consequences.
If you just want to RP Lite here, do your PvE and not be bothered, make a human or another non ECL race.
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Post by DEV Driller on Aug 7, 2008 17:54:03 GMT -5
You say that if you see a Drow or such then act accordingly. So that means everytime you see a Drow you are going insult and call names, etc? Wouldn't that be hounding someone? Wouldn't the fighting involve possibly killing them? I don't see much difference in these two paragraphs. Thanks, -driller The paragraph below is the main thing that stood out to me reading this thread. It sounds like griefing to me. Thanks, -driller It may sound like GRIEF but it is not. It is simply acting on fear/mistrust of odd races. This =/= pvp. More times than not it's name calling and fear. Maybe our definitions of GRIEF differ. Grief to me is killing over and over, or hounding players and the such. All I am doing and advocating is this, you see a Drow or someone with horns or flaming hair, act accordingly. Wether it's running and getting the guards, calling names and making insults or fighting. When I said make their lives hell =/= grief them. *but as I have stated I will make more of attempt to refrain from violence if this is seen as grief. Sometimes it is hard to RP the hostility though when Players refuse to back down, even continuing insults and threats after they have been set "hostile".
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Post by shawnystyle77 on Aug 7, 2008 18:15:09 GMT -5
You say that if you see a Drow or such then act accordingly. So that means everytime you see a Drow you are going insult and call names, etc? Wouldn't that be hounding someone? Wouldn't the fighting involve possibly killing them? I don't see much difference in these two paragraphs. Thanks, -driller It may sound like GRIEF but it is not. It is simply acting on fear/mistrust of odd races. This =/= pvp. More times than not it's name calling and fear. Maybe our definitions of GRIEF differ. Grief to me is killing over and over, or hounding players and the such. All I am doing and advocating is this, you see a Drow or someone with horns or flaming hair, act accordingly. Wether it's running and getting the guards, calling names and making insults or fighting. When I said make their lives hell =/= grief them. *but as I have stated I will make more of attempt to refrain from violence if this is seen as grief. Sometimes it is hard to RP the hostility though when Players refuse to back down, even continuing insults and threats after they have been set "hostile". Possibly, I think our definitions of grief differ tho. Your the boss so you decide. Calling names and insulting IC is RP to me. Sending tells and calling names OOC is greif. Killing someone repeatedly or preventing them from adventuring is grief to me. Killing someone because they threaten to chop your head off is RP to me. I don't grief. I RP racial hostility. You can't expect a level 1 char to stroll up to a seasoned veteran slinging insults and threats and not be dealt with. By hounding I mean this, ok joe drow logs in, I see that he is on ands go looking for him. I find him have an interaction and he leaves the area, I then proceed to follow his char around harassing him and distracting from his gameplay. If you encounter a player you dont want to interact with, it's simple enough just to leave them be. If they follow you around Forcing interaction, then yes it's hounding them and can be defined as grief. On the other hand, if you don't want the interaction but are provoking them with threats or insults... you get what you deserve imo. **edit** also, many of the DM's seem to have varying views of grief,pvp and RP. Please keep in mind when a player "tells" on someone they are only giving you half the story at best. If a player is told KOS drow is fine and you do so once, when did this become griefing?
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Post by DEV Driller on Aug 7, 2008 18:39:39 GMT -5
I see no problem as long as the person you are trying RP with is in agreement. Thanks, -driller You say that if you see a Drow or such then act accordingly. So that means everytime you see a Drow you are going insult and call names, etc? Wouldn't that be hounding someone? Wouldn't the fighting involve possibly killing them? I don't see much difference in these two paragraphs. Thanks, -driller Possibly, I think our definitions of grief differ tho. Your the boss so you decide. Calling names and insulting IC is RP to me. Sending tells and calling names OOC is greif. Killing someone repeatedly or preventing them from adventuring is grief to me. Killing someone because they threaten to chop your head off is RP to me. I don't grief. I RP racial hostility. You can't expect a level 1 char to stroll up to a seasoned veteran slinging insults and threats and not be dealt with. By hounding I mean this, ok joe drow logs in, I see that he is on ands go looking for him. I find him have an interaction and he leaves the area, I then proceed to follow his char around harassing him and distracting from his gameplay. If you encounter a player you dont want to interact with, it's simple enough just to leave them be. If they follow you around Forcing interaction, then yes it's hounding them and can be defined as grief. On the other hand, if you don't want the interaction but are provoking them with threats or insults... you get what you deserve imo. **edit** also, many of the DM's seem to have varying views of grief,pvp and RP. Please keep in mind when a player "tells" on someone they are only giving you half the story at best. If a player is told KOS drow is fine and you do so once, when did this become griefing?
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laurk
Active Member
Posts: 105
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Post by laurk on Aug 7, 2008 18:41:55 GMT -5
This is a general statment and certainly not meant for anyone in particular. But there are my thoughts on our current place as a PW.
This sever is very young, and there isnt a whole lot of places to go. As a result, we are all mashed together in one place. Realistically, it -should- be hard to use one of the UD races, however, it might be "sensible" to save everyone grief if we slow down the persecution just until there are places for the UDs to start.
I have heard rumor that there will be a significant Underdark presence going in before too long. I intend to pitch in as well in seeing it happen. Once we have a place where new UDs and normal characters can start and advance in relitive harmony apart from one another, then having the full on realism of torches and pitchforks will make a good deal more sense to the smooth play of the server.
By overly persicuting as our server currently is, we are basically disallowing these UD races, and I do not believe that was the intent of our server's founder. So... as a personal favor to him, I would advise sending tells and getting permission to have RP conflict with the UDs. If they dont want it... ignore them or just pretend you're too thick to figure out they are a UD. That's my thoughts.
Laurk
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