raenir
Senior Member
Smooching up to the Karma Lords
Quicken Disintigrate (Smile)
Posts: 469
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Post by raenir on Jan 12, 2009 13:49:33 GMT -5
should point out that in the Dragonlance campaign setting novels Raistlin in the early books like only being a level 3 or 4 mage nevertheless scared shitless all the warrior type campions who were arguably lvl 5-8 despite only being able to cast 1 or 2 spells before being exhausted.
You can't think of it in a realistic perspective, in a magical campaign setting some people just EXUDE power, a weak looking mage can with a look should be able to freeze your blood figuratively speaking.
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Post by kingcrab on Jan 12, 2009 15:15:23 GMT -5
What are some known instances of players using the Challenge Rating system to their advantage? (Don't have to name names -- I'm just curious).
If the abuse is minor, I would rather ask the developers to focus on adding to server content rather than making a minor (but difficult to implement) cosmetic change to gameplay....
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Post by Zealote on Jan 12, 2009 15:34:50 GMT -5
What are some known instances of players using the Challenge Rating system to their advantage? (Don't have to name names -- I'm just curious). If the abuse is minor, I would rather ask the developers to focus on adding to server content rather than making a minor (but difficult to implement) cosmetic change to gameplay.... You are right on your post mate. This isnt a MAJOR issue, it is more like a request, but probably wont be added due to issues with the system that removes the CR.
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ovarf
Active Member
Posts: 197
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Post by ovarf on Jan 12, 2009 17:27:15 GMT -5
How could you possibly know the power of a mage just by looking? Is it the robe? The staff? The beard? The old tome he seems to read? The power of a mage comes from his mind. You cannot see his mind when you meet him. Different from a fighter that shows you scars, armor, muscles etc... So, what is the difference from a lvl 27 wizard and a lvl 18 wizard? How can you tell that without the CR? You can look at him and know how smart he is without talking? I mean that is remarkable. With that power you should go make some coin as a chess player. If you can look into the mind of someone like that....man! Awesome! PS: There are some things called Bluff/Intimidate, that are used to make you think something that isnt true, so the looks are not important and can be decieving. But the CR cannot. Wow Mage's don't exist (this seems to be an important point your missing). Now the examples I used earlier do exist in real life and as I stated earlier that if in our world trained people can size up combatants with an examination why would it not be the case in the game world? In a world where magic is the norm I find it absurd that we assume it is completely undetectable and an unknowable force. You are assuming that magic is new and that people don't know about it. If you assume that they grew up with it and its practitioners then it seems perfectly reasonable that people who's survival depends on being able to make an educated guess about the power level of any of the PC classes might be able to including a spellcaster. How you ask well its a world of make believe so make something up if that makes you feel better. Don't assume that since you can't think of a way to do it, without even really thinking about it, that it should be impossible. If there are real life examples of this I do not think its too much of a stretch to assume that the counter parts in the fantasy world would also have those skills
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Post by Zealote on Jan 12, 2009 17:45:00 GMT -5
Yes, the proper way to do it would be roll your wisdom or inteligence, not right click examine and see CR. If it is the looks that matters, just look at the character, they are visible. And by rolling your dice, you will give the guy a chance to decieve you with bluffs, intimidation or by looking like a whimp. Apearances are deceiving even for the best examiners. CR examination has nothing to do with reality, since the guy can be lvl 20 and you 30, and he will look effortless to you. Will that make him less powerfull? If you take that for instance: Effortless = Weak, that would lead to a bad call and would mean your supposed examination skills, so required and easy to use are failing. But if you took your time to RP with him, roll some dice and ask questions to obtain information, instead of using the CR Palantír, you can get good stuff and the proper way. Again, you cannot look at someone for a second and know his character, head to toe. Thats what CR gives you. And eliminates the RP aspect of decieving.
Thanks -Zeal
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Post by adzling on Jan 12, 2009 17:59:20 GMT -5
"In a world where magic is the norm I find it absurd that we assume it is completely undetectable and an unknowable force."
ovarf why don't you try to get you lore "o" fighter to try and identify a magic item? He can't possibly know the difference between a +10 sword of vorpal slaughtering and a +2 sword of slightly magical benefit. To him a magic item is a magic item is a magic item until someone tells him otherwise or he is able to wield it himself and see the effects.
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Post by DEV Jlf2n on Jan 12, 2009 18:07:11 GMT -5
"In a world where magic is the norm I find it absurd that we assume it is completely undetectable and an unknowable force." ovarf why don't you try to get you lore "o" fighter to try and identify a magic item? He can't possibly know the difference between a +10 sword of vorpal slaughtering and a +2 sword of slightly magical benefit. To him a magic item is a magic item is a magic item until someone tells him otherwise or he is able to wield it himself and see the effects. How much do you know about cars? Could you change the starter on one? How much maintenance could you preform on one? Now lets say your like my wife and can't do anything besides screw up the alignment and balance on the tires. Do you think you could tell the difference in quality of a (+2) Chevy Corvette, against a (+5) Ferrari? Because she sure can. Your more or less pushing your gaming style on those around you. Some people like to play the character who knows nothing, some like to play the character who is world weary and knows whats going on around him. Neither is right or wrong.
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Post by Zealote on Jan 12, 2009 18:47:42 GMT -5
"In a world where magic is the norm I find it absurd that we assume it is completely undetectable and an unknowable force." ovarf why don't you try to get you lore "o" fighter to try and identify a magic item? He can't possibly know the difference between a +10 sword of vorpal slaughtering and a +2 sword of slightly magical benefit. To him a magic item is a magic item is a magic item until someone tells him otherwise or he is able to wield it himself and see the effects. How much do you know about cars? Could you change the starter on one? How much maintenance could you preform on one? Now lets say your like my wife and can't do anything besides screw up the alignment and balance on the tires. Do you think you could tell the difference in quality of a (+2) Chevy Corvette, against a (+5) Ferrari? Because she sure can. Your more or less pushing your gaming style on those around you. Some people like to play the character who knows nothing, some like to play the character who is world weary and knows whats going on around him. Neither is right or wrong. I agree with you Josh, but as stated on my post, knowing something IG is through RP. Otherwise is called metagaming.
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ovarf
Active Member
Posts: 197
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Post by ovarf on Jan 13, 2009 18:31:00 GMT -5
I agree with you Josh, but as stated on my post, knowing something IG is through RP. Otherwise is called metagaming. By this definition of Metagaming you would have to start as a baby and have someone teach you how to eat walk talk excreta. PCs start as adults. Adults have a wider grasp of the world then the one you seem to be advocating. A level one PC is not a blank slate they have 20ish years or more of experience behind them and they have trained to become an adventurer class.
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Post by adzling on Jan 13, 2009 19:27:38 GMT -5
"In a world where magic is the norm I find it absurd that we assume it is completely undetectable and an unknowable force." ovarf why don't you try to get you lore "o" fighter to try and identify a magic item? He can't possibly know the difference between a +10 sword of vorpal slaughtering and a +2 sword of slightly magical benefit. To him a magic item is a magic item is a magic item until someone tells him otherwise or he is able to wield it himself and see the effects. How much do you know about cars? Could you change the starter on one? How much maintenance could you preform on one? Now lets say your like my wife and can't do anything besides screw up the alignment and balance on the tires. Do you think you could tell the difference in quality of a (+2) Chevy Corvette, against a (+5) Ferrari? Because she sure can. Your more or less pushing your gaming style on those around you. Some people like to play the character who knows nothing, some like to play the character who is world weary and knows whats going on around him. Neither is right or wrong. it's quite obvious that a lore "10" fighter is materially different in his knowledge of magical items and artifacts and should be rpd that way. your example vis a vis your wife is slightly wrong in a critical way. She may know a ferrari is faster than chevy corvette but it's likely she has no idea what is inside either car as far as engine, powertrain or suspension. The reason why she can differentiate ANY difference in those cars is due to the way mass-manufacture and marketing works in the modern world. ANYONE could tell you a ferrari is faster than a corvette but that's not because they nec. understand whats going on it's because of marketing and word-on-the-street about the ferrari brand. Back in dnd there is NO mass manufacturing (for the most part) Every item is a uniquely crafted one-of-a-kind (or one of a few hundred at most) items. So the common man cannot for the most part make inferences based upon brand. They have to rely upon their knowledge of magical items construction, materials and craftmanship. Hence lore skill. A lore "0" fighter know squat about this by definition (it's in the rule book) while a lore "10" fighter know a lot more. Per your example the world weary war veteran fighter would in fact have accumulated some points in lore over time as it represents his time and experience in the realms.
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Post by Zealote on Jan 13, 2009 21:57:26 GMT -5
Despite all arguments the CR wont be removed, since it cant be done at the moment.
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Post by adzling on Jan 13, 2009 22:00:21 GMT -5
we just like to hear ourselves talk zealote ;-)
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raenir
Senior Member
Smooching up to the Karma Lords
Quicken Disintigrate (Smile)
Posts: 469
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Post by raenir on Jan 13, 2009 23:51:53 GMT -5
How much do you know about cars? Could you change the starter on one? How much maintenance could you preform on one? Now lets say your like my wife and can't do anything besides screw up the alignment and balance on the tires. Do you think you could tell the difference in quality of a (+2) Chevy Corvette, against a (+5) Ferrari? Because she sure can. Your more or less pushing your gaming style on those around you. Some people like to play the character who knows nothing, some like to play the character who is world weary and knows whats going on around him. Neither is right or wrong. it's quite obvious that a lore "10" fighter is materially different in his knowledge of magical items and artifacts and should be rpd that way. your example vis a vis your wife is slightly wrong in a critical way. She may know a ferrari is faster than chevy corvette but it's likely she has no idea what is inside either car as far as engine, powertrain or suspension. The reason why she can differentiate ANY difference in those cars is due to the way mass-manufacture and marketing works in the modern world. ANYONE could tell you a ferrari is faster than a corvette but that's not because they nec. understand whats going on it's because of marketing and word-on-the-street about the ferrari brand. Back in dnd there is NO mass manufacturing (for the most part) Every item is a uniquely crafted one-of-a-kind (or one of a few hundred at most) items. So the common man cannot for the most part make inferences based upon brand. They have to rely upon their knowledge of magical items construction, materials and craftmanship. Hence lore skill. A lore "0" fighter know squat about this by definition (it's in the rule book) while a lore "10" fighter know a lot more. Per your example the world weary war veteran fighter would in fact have accumulated some points in lore over time as it represents his time and experience in the realms. Correction there is NO lore skill in PnP only Knowledge ( Something ), Crafting (Something ), and Profession (Something ) can in some combination be used to determine the above. But generally I have never seen a DM leave it up to chance how he described atypical NPC's we KNOW the challenge rating based on his description he gives. The challenge rating in NWN2 is simply the simplification of the DM-Description system, to be used best itld be nice if more people put better character descriptions to enrich it.
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Post by Zealote on Jan 14, 2009 1:15:55 GMT -5
One example of how the examination of CR is metagame and how DMs can turn this around on PnP or on NWN2: On PnP, several times DMing, I have used an NPC and through my description, he looked badass, but was just a regular guy with a cool armor and strong. Or a guy you believe cant do nothing, can actually ''decide the fate of us all''. IG, the DM can make a kobold have lvl 20, and he will still look like effortless to you. And he will give you the same xp. We do it all the time to bring surprise and challenge to an event. Not like that, but a slight boost on the mob lvl will get you by surprise, since you will be used to fight and win in seconds. And just like in RL, things are not always as they seem. And to use a RL situation to counter some arguments that the adventurers would 'know' about others abilities just by looking at them, you can see the example of a scientist. You can see something and make a hipothesis, but you can only 'know' for sure once you experimented that situation or that particular object. Thus, you can look at someone and calculate strentgh, but you can be right or wrong, depending on the other guy's ability to conceal his true power, if he is indeed trying to. But with one click, you can know everything you need, avoiding the various scenarios and possible mistakes that you could have on your judgment and go for the ''Ahh you're my lvl are ya?''. No experimentation, just pure simple magic ball and false true seeing or something like that. This will never be RP. No matter how you can try to explain, modify and paint it to look cool. By all means, you have posted on several forums I can bet. So that makes you an expert on knowing about the other posters? I mean, can you know my 'post power'? My wisdom? My insight? My IQ? You can surelly guess. But without the magic of 'right click examine' you will never know for sure. Just like in RL or IG. There is a BIG difference between to KNOWN strentgh and to CALCULATE strentgh.
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Post by DEV Driller on Jan 14, 2009 9:33:47 GMT -5
Yes, but that wont stop people from arguing about it. -driller Despite all arguments the CR wont be removed, since it cant be done at the moment.
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