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Post by DEV Akavit on Jan 10, 2009 13:45:09 GMT -5
The challenge rating really isn't needed for mobs either. That is where hit and run and probing actions come into play. Simply attack the monsters from a distance or keep some scrolls and potions on hand for backup. If things look like they are getting out of hand it's time to vacate the area.
Getting whipped by a poorly-chosen fight is all part of the fun anyway.
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Post by Zealote on Jan 10, 2009 15:31:06 GMT -5
The challenge rating really isn't needed for mobs either. That is where hit and run and probing actions come into play. Simply attack the monsters from a distance or keep some scrolls and potions on hand for backup. If things look like they are getting out of hand it's time to vacate the area. Getting whipped by a poorly-chosen fight is all part of the fun anyway. Right on! Still waiting for Gandy to come and get raped though. Do not examine my PC before the fight! ROFL
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Post by DEV Akavit on Jan 10, 2009 15:36:14 GMT -5
The challenge rating really isn't needed for mobs either. That is where hit and run and probing actions come into play. Simply attack the monsters from a distance or keep some scrolls and potions on hand for backup. If things look like they are getting out of hand it's time to vacate the area. Getting whipped by a poorly-chosen fight is all part of the fun anyway. Right on! Still waiting for Gandy to come and get raped though. Do not examine my PC before the fight! ROFL That will never happen. hehe. Gandy always spies on people and gauges their potential victim-hood on the basis of their ability to kill lizards and gnolls. Unless Ujio allows a lizard to beat him in a brawl just to fool lurking bandits.
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Post by Iceshard on Jan 10, 2009 21:24:21 GMT -5
I know someone else who is always watching. . . -Ice
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Post by DM Cephas on Jan 11, 2009 2:07:39 GMT -5
I've been told that there currently is no way to remove the CR rating (the only one found thus far is easily circumvented). Is it easier perhaps to just disallow examination of a PC or an NPC (aimed towards the devs)? It kinda sucks for those who take time to put something cool in that history box but it does stop the metagaming due to CR and the buffs that a PC may have on. I personally don't mind the trade-offs.
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Post by wildelf on Jan 11, 2009 3:42:44 GMT -5
I know someone else who is always watching. . . It's true! He is. On topic: If this could be removed in any way, all the better. However, my level in Knowledge (Haks) is 1, so I can't tell you where to even start.
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Post by shorn on Jan 11, 2009 19:59:57 GMT -5
If one of you can drive down here, look at me, and tell me that because I look challenging, I am the same level as them, plausibly, you can give a good argument for keeping this in the game. Aside from that levels are arbitrary to the world we rp in, I think that justifys ditching the CR on inspection.
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ovarf
Active Member
Posts: 197
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Post by ovarf on Jan 11, 2009 21:24:24 GMT -5
Lovely my first post and I don't agree with any of you
Counterpoint: In your field of expertise how long dose it take you to determine someones competence level ? I bet its not long at all.
All PC are effectively combat classes of some nature. Their field of expertise is combat. That is their lively hood and if they where not good at it they would be dead.
Shouldn't we assume that professional D&D adventurers would have the same ability's that we all have in real life (the ability to quickly judge someone's competence in your chosen field) ?
The equipment they use, its quality, how they handle themselves , their stance, how Items are secured on them the list would likely be as long as your own list to ways you could tell someone was very good or very bad at your job.
We are playing PC who's very life depends on being able to make thous judgments on a regular biases correctly or die. I think it is ridicules to assume that they wouldn't be able to make an in game assessment as general as the current system.
I honestly don't see it as meta gaming at all. It is an ability that your PC not only would but absolutely should have or they would die.
Talk to real life combatants (armed forces, police, prize fighters) they will all tell you that they size up situations and people with a fair amount of accuracy thou I suspect they might tend to error on the side of caution.
While ability to say someone is a level 3 thug dose not exist. The ability to look at someone and make a judgment call, on the spot, with a fair degree of accuracy of their relative threat level to you as a combatant dose indeed exist.
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Post by DM Sir Carnifex on Jan 11, 2009 23:29:58 GMT -5
Lovely my first post and I don't agree with any of you Counterpoint: In your field of expertise how long dose it take you to determine someones competence level ? I bet its not long at all. All PC are effectively combat classes of some nature. Their field of expertise is combat. That is their lively hood and if they where not good at it they would be dead. Shouldn't we assume that professional D&D adventurers would have the same ability's that we all have in real life (the ability to quickly judge someone's competence in your chosen field) ? The equipment they use, its quality, how they handle themselves , their stance, how Items are secured on them the list would likely be as long as your own list to ways you could tell someone was very good or very bad at your job. We are playing PC who's very life depends on being able to make thous judgments on a regular biases correctly or die. I think it is ridicules to assume that they wouldn't be able to make an in game assessment as general as the current system. I honestly don't see it as meta gaming at all. It is an ability that your PC not only would but absolutely should have or they would die. Talk to real life combatants (armed forces, police, prize fighters) they will all tell you that they size up situations and people with a fair amount of accuracy thou I suspect they might tend to error on the side of caution. While ability to say someone is a level 3 thug dose not exist. The ability to look at someone and make a judgment call, on the spot, with a fair degree of accuracy of their relative threat level to you as a combatant dose indeed exist. There is a problem to this if one is to only look at it from the PC = experienced adventurer/combat veteran approach. The problem is that not everyone plays those PCs. I have seen many type ranging from combat veterans, to absent-minded old men who sit by campfires, to beggars, to merchants, to bard who doesn't fight. So you can see that just because a PC is in this world does not mean that they are experienced in calculating the fighting ability of another. Furthermore, a good swordsman wouldn't be able to tell an experience mage just by looks from a dunce who can only cast a few simple cantrips. The swordsman's expertise may give him an idea about another swordsman (assuming he doesn't just see him with a sword in a scabbard walking down the road) but he wouldn't know the least about magic. This could also be the same for a good mage who doesn't know which side of a sword to hold. Yet, even after all this, using the examine function, any person of any type can identify how good a person of any other class is regardless of skill in that field. There's obviously some truth to what you say (given the person has time to observe the other's actions, etc.) but in many cases it just wouldn't work out that way.
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Post by adzling on Jan 12, 2009 0:28:24 GMT -5
carn you hit the nail on the head.
and to top it all off you wouldn't be able to tell their immunities by looking at them ;-)
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Post by His Masters Voice on Jan 12, 2009 1:02:46 GMT -5
Moot argument altogether, CR examination cannot be removed at this point unless Obsidian provides a fix to it. The alternative measures can be simply circumvented by examining through a familiar, item inventory tossing, etc.
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ovarf
Active Member
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Post by ovarf on Jan 12, 2009 11:17:13 GMT -5
By the logic presented here no D&D PC would make it to level 3 you are advocating a level of incompetence that to put it simply would be fatal.
All this talk of "meta gaming" and this is just simply the reverse everyone seems so hung up on the fact that their are levels we "can't see" you are all ignoring the fact that ALL classes are combatants classes (if the individual chooses to RP a non combatant then they can ignore the examine) and should be able to make an educated guess at relative power level.
In a world where magic is readability available and used what possible reason would there be for a fighter not to have skill in determining mage's relative power level and the same is true for the reverse. PC are all combatants who earn exp threw fighting they may have different styles of doing it but the effect is the same they fight and kill for a living. To do that you have to have an ability to judge the relative power level of your opponent or you would die very very quickly.
(now the buffs I do agree with they should not be shown but a general power level with a fair degree of accuracy i think is more then fair)
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Post by Zealote on Jan 12, 2009 12:22:20 GMT -5
How could you possibly know the power of a mage just by looking? Is it the robe? The staff? The beard? The old tome he seems to read? The power of a mage comes from his mind. You cannot see his mind when you meet him. Different from a fighter that shows you scars, armor, muscles etc... So, what is the difference from a lvl 27 wizard and a lvl 18 wizard? How can you tell that without the CR? You can look at him and know how smart he is without talking? I mean that is remarkable. With that power you should go make some coin as a chess player. If you can look into the mind of someone like that....man! Awesome!
PS: There are some things called Bluff/Intimidate, that are used to make you think something that isnt true, so the looks are not important and can be decieving. But the CR cannot.
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Post by DM haunted on Jan 12, 2009 12:27:36 GMT -5
Ummm lets see,Im sure there is a way to set everyone's cr to the same thing ,yes...Make it to where everyone reads effortless....?Hells,for some reason a level 3 can look at me skele's cr and it reads effortless,which in actuality it should say impossible to the player since it is a level 15 fighter.Perhaps we can do the same for everyone?
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Post by DM Sir Carnifex on Jan 12, 2009 13:29:55 GMT -5
Ummm lets see,Im sure there is a way to set everyone's cr to the same thing ,yes...Make it to where everyone reads effortless....?Hells,for some reason a level 3 can look at me skele's cr and it reads effortless,which in actuality it should say impossible to the player since it is a level 15 fighter.Perhaps we can do the same for everyone? Excellent idea if it can be implemented. I think this would also encourage a lot of people to PvP because they'd see the effortless and not know what they are getting into. ;D
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