|
Post by adzling on Jan 9, 2009 18:23:12 GMT -5
haha mingming once again you show your true colors.
you refuse to engage the actual issue and instead throw out irrelevant straw-men.
no one is suggesting anything you mention in your post, you are clearly exaggerating because you are unable to engage on the actual issue.
the issue being that bugsidian clearly never gave more than as passing thought to how dnd would be played on a PW let alone game balance (not that everything must be perfectly balanced far from it) and to add insult to injury they littered game destroying bugs all over the farking plance.
if you were to go the nw vault you would find many many haks that address these issues.
on a PW it is up to the developers to decide what to implement and it is clear that many people feel that some of the worst exploits need to be plugged.
I can tell you from playing on a PW that has no such restrictions AT ALL for the last year that it ends up corrupting and destroying the game.
You end up with everyone being RDD or a svirfneblin, druid monk wearing full plate or a cleric with domains that don't match their religion or rogues with one level dip in SD just to get HIPS.
These are all clearly exploits and over time ruin the gaming experience for everyone.
So why not be happy with dnd as it was intended to be played (i.e. pnp rules) where possible and where not due to the limitations of CRPGs then be happy that the devs are attempting to plug the worst exploits?
Or would you would you prefer instead that those who happen to know all the best bugs that bugsidian introduced and the way they can be exploited become the most feared power-builders on the PW?
Cause if that's the case it would be real easy for me to build a monk/cleric/svirf build that trashes the hardest meanest PC you could put together.
But then that would be idiotic and i wouldn't do that.
However my experience on an unmoderated PW is that MANY other players will. And then spend their time trying to bully other players because they can access their CR rating via an OOC game element.
Seems like cheese to me.
care for a helping?
|
|
|
Post by DEV Akavit on Jan 9, 2009 18:37:55 GMT -5
One of the reasons none of my characters have anything in their bio pages is that I've never been able to look at somebody IRL and suddenly know a small portion of their life story...even though that'd be neat.. I'm actually disappointed when I right-click and do not find a description. Whatever gives you the impression that this has to be used for writing details on the character's history? When a PC is examined, one should be able to see a detailed description of things that one would actually see if they were to look at the character. But yes, the challange rating should go. I always right-click PC's in hopes of finding a nice description to read. The problem is that it is impossible not to see the CR and that gives away information that inevitably alters a players perception of the PC in question. The CR has no useful purpose anyway so it might as well go. I have no idea why the developers of NW2 put it into the game in the first place.
|
|
|
Post by DEV Jlf2n on Jan 9, 2009 20:21:34 GMT -5
I've got a great idea! Why not remove anything that might be misused in the game altogether?! Random dice rolls! Level-ups! Feats! Skill points! Spells! All these things contribute to a terribly abusive and exploitative situation! Why it's gotten so bad that you can't even log in and actually play the game anymore without one of these these interrupting your gaming experience! I think we should create little static alcoves where PC's are stored in stasis, grouped around each other, so they can talk to each other and RP; but are otherwise prevented from actually impacting each other! Oh wait, then someone might start god-narrating and that would be bad. We might as well take away the text box as well! Wheee! Let's all just not bother logging into the PW because the act of logging in m,ight very well be offensive and abusive! A new player can log in, and do whatever he/she wants. You can stand around and RP till you run out of breath or you can grind 18 hours a day for 9 months. We attempt to do some things to make it like a role Play server and some like an MMO. Leveling out some of the classes is an example of making it like an MMO, not a HC RP world.
|
|
thegnomeherder
Senior Member
Bhaal, the Lord of Gettin' sum
Posts: 356
|
Post by thegnomeherder on Jan 9, 2009 22:29:31 GMT -5
Basically the reason for not only the challenge rating but for 90% of the bugs and issues when making a PW, is NWN1 and NWN2 was created for a single/multi player campaign in which 1 guy or a guy and friends make characters and play through the campaigns. None of the designers had PW's in mind and those that did made the tool set and the ability for it to be scripted in anyway the scriptors see fit.
The game wasn't designed to be a PW right off the bat, plus I believe the challenge rating is marked better to adhere to what is a danger to your character's entire party something that us PWers don't have.
Anyway I didn't mean to spark a flame war, just a discussion- I'd love to see the CR's removed, but in the end its the Dev team's decision. =]
|
|
thegnomeherder
Senior Member
Bhaal, the Lord of Gettin' sum
Posts: 356
|
Post by thegnomeherder on Jan 9, 2009 22:43:40 GMT -5
to an extant in fantasy the point of the challenge rating is your perception, some people excude power, you are simply able to tell relative to you how powerful they are. Why for example should Elminster fear a burly 6 foot tall tough guy under any circumstances? Flesh to Stone and now he has a nice burly statue for Shadowdale. Actually this pretty much proves my point- No Elminster doesn't have to fear the 6 foot tall stranger but after casting his stone skin spell assuming he'll die as easily as all the other 6 foot tall strangers, what if the stranger resists because he happens to be the Avatar of Azzkickleon the demi-god of ass kicking and kicks Elminsters ass?
|
|
|
Post by highwayman on Jan 10, 2009 0:55:32 GMT -5
I don't think elminster can die atm, isn't he chosen?
|
|
thegnomeherder
Senior Member
Bhaal, the Lord of Gettin' sum
Posts: 356
|
Post by thegnomeherder on Jan 10, 2009 1:08:49 GMT -5
I don't think elminster can die atm, isn't he chosen? That was just my example...I wasn't speaking literally.
|
|
|
Post by daringoutlaw on Jan 10, 2009 3:26:54 GMT -5
I concur. Away with it I say!
|
|
|
Post by Zealote on Jan 10, 2009 4:02:21 GMT -5
I've got a great idea! Why not remove anything that might be misused in the game altogether?! Random dice rolls! Level-ups! Feats! Skill points! Spells! All these things contribute to a terribly abusive and exploitative situation! Why it's gotten so bad that you can't even log in and actually play the game anymore without one of these these interrupting your gaming experience! I think we should create little static alcoves where PC's are stored in stasis, grouped around each other, so they can talk to each other and RP; but are otherwise prevented from actually impacting each other! Oh wait, then someone might start god-narrating and that would be bad. We might as well take away the text box as well! Wheee! Let's all just not bother logging into the PW because the act of logging in m,ight very well be offensive and abusive! Didnt get the reason for the odd post. I fail to see what your comments have to do with CR. The things you quote comparing to the CR being removed are common things for DnD. The CR for mobs is as well. But the CR for PCs is not. It is pointless and only used to metagame. Correct me if im wrong, but the same usage for feats, skill, dice rolls and spells is not the same as 'click examine and see your lvl compared to mine'. I agree with removing the CR for PCs. Helps the RP of those who have to deal with metagamers. And they are everywhere. *Looks around scared* But as have been stated before, the tool used to do that is broken and cannot totally hide the CR for there is a way to avoid that and soon everybody will know and the trouble would be for nothing. But, if some new way to do it can be added, with no exploits, I think it would be a good addition. Zeal PS: I also find it strange to read that post from you, who above all, hates metagame at the point of changing you PC's name to Slip of a Girl, to avoid metagamers. Isnt that right? You've used a tool you had available to avoid the metagamers, just like its proposed with the CR for PCs removed.
|
|
atlas
Active Member
Posts: 177
|
Post by atlas on Jan 10, 2009 4:04:46 GMT -5
I wouldnt mind a huge lot if it was taken away from Pc's examining each other but left on Npc's and monsters. Without it on monsters and whatnot you would have a heap of deaths and confusion among new characters. For instance, logic tells you that Goblins are weak as, and yet the Goblins here are stronger than the Ogres on the map before them. If you took it away from the monsters you would have to have indepth guides and descriptions of each monster listed on the forum and whatnot, not nessicarily their stats but say Volo's guide to Goblins and so on.
|
|
|
Post by Zealote on Jan 10, 2009 4:12:42 GMT -5
On top of the CR, we could also have removed the 'AC Increased', 'skill increased' and those meta weapons. We can have a rogue reading the description and say: - Well look at that, hes imune to poison. Let me change my weapon for a second. We who like to RP and be surprised, can get overwhelmed by the metagamers that have no guilt on exploiting a bad move from the designers or a bug/issue.
|
|
|
Post by Tiefling on Jan 10, 2009 4:52:37 GMT -5
I for one would like to keep the chalenge ratings and such as they are. My reason being: simply for the sake of maintaining metagaming. With the all debate above, I honestly must appear like the worst role-player ever.
However, since seeing the low chalenge rating does give away players with 'lower level' than you got yourself. I have metagamed, I have used that little bit of information to lead the In-Character discussion so that I can ask whether the new character has done the Maltz quest or not.
(And then offering to help the guy, from a RP point of view; just because 'Nebbie' likes to ruin Maltz day by not letting him to send new adventures to their deaths.)
|
|
|
Post by driderman on Jan 10, 2009 12:13:44 GMT -5
I for one would like to keep the chalenge ratings and such as they are. My reason being: simply for the sake of maintaining metagaming. With the all debate above, I honestly must appear like the worst role-player ever. However, since seeing the low chalenge rating does give away players with 'lower level' than you got yourself. I have metagamed, I have used that little bit of information to lead the In-Character discussion so that I can ask whether the new character has done the Maltz quest or not. (And then offering to help the guy, from a RP point of view; just because 'Nebbie' likes to ruin Maltz day by not letting him to send new adventures to their deaths.) Even though that's commendable behaviour, the CR does more harm than good. For every benefactor like you helping out a newbie there's probably at least a handful of malefactors that use the CR rating as a tool to bully, annoy and metagame without any risk of repercussions.
|
|
|
Post by adzling on Jan 10, 2009 12:17:05 GMT -5
good point tiefling.
however on a PW you have to view everything from the perspective of the lowest common denominator (i know this from experience). It's fine to say "oh i never do that" or "lets all play the best we can and show others that that is not the right thing to do" however it never works.
So while you may use the CR in a helpful manner many others will not.
And it's the others you need to be concerned with.
|
|
|
Post by Tiefling on Jan 10, 2009 12:55:15 GMT -5
I'm not doing it all that often. So I'm not any saint.
... Never mind.
|
|