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Post by His Masters Voice on Dec 23, 2008 9:23:42 GMT -5
It's all in the build. I can't sit in a doorway with cleave and a greatsword with an AA than what I was doing with with my caster while watching Hulu or doing something else.
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Post by blametherogue on Dec 23, 2008 9:56:26 GMT -5
depends on the build, time available to play, and how much time spent grinding. too slow for me, because i have to force myself to grind, and i dont have hours to play at a time, and my build isnt a power build.
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Post by DM mithari on Dec 23, 2008 10:13:29 GMT -5
It's alright. Low kill XP does indeed only hurt those with more limited play time. Nothing short of single digit XP values will stop those who really want the high levels from getting there (see: many MMOs). Although I generally like the idea of epic levels being granted only by DMs, it will require paperwork to do it fairly. Lots and lots of paperwork to keep track of the individual achievements of each epic character. Some sort of encouragement for the grinding population to do so in parties (beyond arbitrarily powerful monsters like the Frost Giants ) would be nice, though.
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Post by tristanvaneer on Dec 23, 2008 10:33:16 GMT -5
mithari makes a good point and I think Luna made an excellent point about party experience. What I have seen in my experience is that there are certain players who have the ability to play for six or seven hour stretches at a time. When you spend six or seven hours simply grinding out monsters its easy to level. Then there are the more casual gamers who are able to log on for an hour or two at a time and they level slowly because they are more interested in character development. The problem is that the players who aren't able to log in as often feel that they are inferior or not able to RP properly with the individuals who have the opportunity to spend hours leveling. How exactly is a level 5 character supposed to stand up to a level 15 character or what have you. Luna for example could have been playing her character for several months and attained prominent position within the city or something of that nature, but how much influence does she really have over that level 15? The downside to trying to control something like this is that it most often gets overly controlled and either nobody is able to level or EVERYBODY is able to level. From what I see here it appears that there is a fairly decent number of DMs in place and maybe a few more are needed, but DMs are going to be required to monitor and control this situation to keep it fair. Everyone knows who the regulars are and what they are interested in accomplishing. When someone has proven themselves to a DM I think it would be a wise decision for the DM to choose to step in and provide that character with the experience that he or she deserves based on their status in the world. Not every character in the world needs to be epic, but if we pull the reigns back then the only ones allowed to be epics are the ones who have already made it when there were short comings with parts of the server. I wish you luck trying to find that happy medium because it is such a fine line, but I have confidence that you guys and gals can do it, you've done an amazing job with everything else on the server.
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Post by Zealote on Dec 23, 2008 10:40:36 GMT -5
See... I guess it all depends. I've been here since the server began pretty much, and I've only got the one character to boot. I don't think it's wrong to have some expectations of progress for my playing time, given the investment I've put in. Is the 2-week epic character a bit ridiculous? Yes, absolutely. But this isn't the fault of the builders or the playerbase. It's a combination of initial enthusiasm for a new player who first tries the server and loves it so much they spend 40+ hours a week playing nonstop, and the wrong attitude that everything must be done now, now, now or the world will come to an end. We've all seen these players, and they are usually new. Moreso, many of them grow out of this phase, and so then become good roleplayers and understand that a sense of patience will give them greater gratification overall. But the initial problem is educating them, instilling the right attitude in them with the carrot and not the stick, and discouraging the veterans from being overly nice to them and helping them power level. I know how tempting it is to help a lower group of players, and trust me it's fine to show them the ropes and nudge them in the right direction with a few buffs; but to take them to places way out of their league, follow them with constant buffs/heals/raises, this is misplaced charity and gives people the wrong idea. Yet it happens more often than we like to admit. It's not cause people are being bad, quite the opposite, this happens cause people want to be kind and share something fantastic with others. I think there's sometimes a knee-jerk tendency for folks to assume the worst about other players and admins here on the forums, and it's important to remember that everyone here came here because of a love of the game. Just like major League ball players can become spoiled and forget why they play, so too I think we all fall into a similar trap. But there's nothing wrong with being a good sport about things, even if there's a troublesome problem or seemingly a exploit, we should not slap all players for what might be a small minority of ignorant players. Likewise, just because a DM or admin has had a bad day, or wasn't at the top of his game, doesn't mean someone should go postal and rant on the forums about how much they hate whom and what, or quit in a huff. But the trust, it's got to start somewhere; and that begins with presumption that no one is cheating, that no one is deliberately exploiting, and that all it takes is a friendly whisper of "Hey, slow down. Those undead will be here tomorrow still." for a player to realize maybe they got too enthusiastic and they can afford to take a slower pace. I know that I like to roleplay more out of preference, but I'll bet it wouldn't hurt for people to feel they aren't penalized for voluntarily taking a step back from adventuring. Maybe DM's can do more "day in the life" things for people? I've seen Josh do a few, and they are greatly appreciated by the folks that are lucky enough to get a scene or two. I guess what I am saying is the worries and fears of rapid advancement is a pacing problem that relates to style of play. It's not mechanical problem. It's not a XP rewards problem. And I don't think it should affect all players that have been here from the beginning or came afterwards. People deserve the chance to play without being made to feel ashamed for doing something they like. Guilting folks as if it's somehow BAD for them to be playing on the server is the wrong approach. It'll drive folks away and make the server poorer for the long run. My God woman, roll some wisdom before you do something like this......... ;D
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Post by broham2 on Dec 23, 2008 11:04:06 GMT -5
I guess I don't mind the pace at which I level, which isn't all that quick relative to most players (from what i can see).
The problem is that it seems like it becomes a 'keeping up with the Joneses' issue and that since there ARE some that will go from 0-epic in a week's time that you must keep pushing for the next level to stay on par. Lately it seems the leveling curve has gone WAY up, and there is a whole new cast of characters that are near or at epic levels that weren't even here a month ago. It makes it hard to RP when I log in one day and help a new character battle through to Beregost, barely keeping them alive.. and then a week later they are asking if I want to slay giants... uh.. what?!
I wouldn't mind seeing level caps per week.. say you can not gain more than 2-3 levels a week (even that is pretty quick I think). I don't know how troublesome that would be or how much work it would entail, but I dont think it's all that much of a stretch to say it should take you at least 7-10 weeks to hit epic. Hell, that would at least give you some time to meet the other players a bit and get involved in a plot line or two. I wouldn't even necessarily use XP point caps - just leveling. If you want to log in and grind til your heart's content thats fine, and your xp will build.. but you won't be able to use the 'level up' function but 2-3 times a week. It will keep people in the lower level areas for longer, force some RP maybe, and slow down the curve.
It all comes down to the RP rating. Are we an action server or an RP server? I know we like to be the best of both worlds, but sometimes when two worlds collide it's not pretty (just ask George Costanza).
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Post by tellockas79 on Dec 23, 2008 11:34:35 GMT -5
While the exp gain was small, it provided a nice incentive for evenings spent around the campfire or in a tavern rather than hunting creatures for hours. I would whole heartedly agree with this. That is an element that seems to be missing in nwn2, its a great platform, but you loss alittle personal touch. For those of you who were big in to PnP, as I was, What great adventure didn't start in the local tavern? As a player I would love to see encounter xp drop alittle in order to add an element of RP and rp xp.
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Post by Erulaan D'Anhoor on Dec 23, 2008 11:34:59 GMT -5
In my views, the game doesn't take on much meaning for me until my characters reach their full potential, ie are maxxed. Many are more for the "enjoy the ride, I love rping low level characters", but I really need to be able to have my character protect himself in order to RP his very interesting traits.
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Post by DM Cephas on Dec 23, 2008 11:46:38 GMT -5
I'd vote for a some sort of a time-based level cap. When it boils down to it, you won't be able to keep everything "fair" between a casual gamer and one who has oodles of free time on their hands by mere adjustment of the xp gain. (although it may be good to review it still)
Will the heavy grinder get frustrated? Yes and no. Yes, because they can't level up their character. No, because they tend to just make a new one while the other PC is waiting to level. I figure that's what a heavy grinder will do anyway once they make level 30 or it becomes too hard to level.
Perhaps, this can strike a happy medium between allowing grinders to do their thing (using diff PCs), casual players, and players that don't want their RP ruining by encountering 0-to-epic-in-a-week PC's?
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Post by eldur(retired) on Dec 23, 2008 12:01:35 GMT -5
We are a server with an almost even divide between action players and rp'ers based on an earlier poll, and I really think that people walk the line between the two quite often based on what I’ve seen as a DM.
The action players will typically want to level their characters as efficiently as possible so as to best enjoy the action with a full set of abilities, while the rp’ers will often forgo the xp hunt as the abilities don’t necessarily make the character.
What does this mean?
Sir C may have exaggerated a bit, but the action players have the ability to level a character into the early 20’s with a few weeks of grinding. (or less than a week with the right build and time dedication) The people that focus on roleplaying will take much longer as they aren’t often out grinding on monsters. It may take months to reach the same levels.
If we cut the xp rate in half, it would mean that it could take the hard core action person two weeks to level, or cut it to 1/4th and it’ll take 4 weeks for those uber build. They’ll still have an epic character in less than a month.
The roleplaying folks would be the ones that are punished the most (although they may not care) as it could take 6 months to a year to level a character up with their current play style.
I actually think the xps are ok as they are if we are to stay a hybrid roleplay / action server.
If anything, once the epic content is in, we may want to make the leveling rate even quicker (gasp!) in order to help out those focused on roleplaying. The action folks will chew it up and level within weeks anyways, but the r/p’ers will fall quite behind at this point. (once again, they may not care)
In my opinion, the action folks really want epic characters and epic battles. It’s what has made so many mmo companies wealthy and quite popular. The roleplayers want a great backdrop for their story.
My question back would be, how soon will the epic content be made available?
If it’s coming soon, keep things as they are. (other than the fixes mentioned to dying and possibly party xps)
If it’s still a half year away, set the level cap at 20 as there really is nothing left in terms of challenge past 20 other than frost giants and possibly skeletons, but these are easily managed in a well balanced group.
I would also be in favor of r/p xps being automated. (up to a certain level cap perhaps)
I know the big concern is people abusing the system, but the ones that want to level are likely going to go out and seek action and level as quick as possible on monsters anyways.
The DM's can also monitor and boot people if they feel they are afk'ing to abuse the system.
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Post by broham2 on Dec 23, 2008 12:27:06 GMT -5
For the record, I consider myself an RPer, though I will RP a reason to grind every now and then (typically when im so close to leveling that I can taste it!).
I really detest grinding, not that its a bad thing but i just dont have the patience for it. When I go into 'action' mode its typically because I want to try out a new feat, a new piece of gear, or I am bored and want to play for just a bit.
That said as an 'RPer' I WOULD mind leveling any slower than I do now, even though I like to RP I also dont like to RP the insignificant B*tch to those that used grinding to jump over my level really quickly.
So long as there will always be those that go 'action' until they are high enough level to RP the bad ass, I will always feel the need to catch them.
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meldor
Senior Member
QC Team
Posts: 369
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Post by meldor on Dec 23, 2008 12:30:58 GMT -5
The only thing that I would change as of now in term of xp / lvling is :
NWN2 is a Role Playing Game Which mean you play a role within a game. Which was Dungeons and Dragons Idea since it's origin.
When you play the solo campaign it's hardly impossible to solo with 1 character thru the whole storie, you need partners to accomplish things that your character cant do.
Well I think we should be forced to group to advance in a persistent world. I hate to see peoples solo. I want to see more group contents.
So in a simple sentence:
Group xp and Group lvling past lvl 10.
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Post by luna on Dec 23, 2008 13:00:21 GMT -5
Then I restarted Chloe ICL +3 and it took me 3 days just to get lvl 4. Starting was really painful. Having 6HP for the first 10000xp was just crazy. After that I was lucky to find groups and xp with them because soloing as an archer was really hard. When you see a barbarian solo phaze spiders at lvl 12.. and kill them 3 at times in about 10 sec when it take you 30 sec to kill one at lvl 14 you feel that you are way underpowered. Past lvl 17 it's just not possible to solo as a pure ranger / rogue archer. One of the backpacks I built gives you +5 hp.. and I built a pair of boots that gives +3 hp. Will try to get those into the blacksmith shop for the next big update. That should alleviate some of the problems when starting with a level 1 weakling like a wizard with 4 hit points. I'll put my support for systems that encourage parties (even party grinding) rather than solo grinding. This is because it adds more fun to the PW experience overall. I also support the grouping of mobs with diverse talents as well (this has happening more so and give a thumbs up to it ). It helps balance out the strength of any one build and will encourage parties. Yup.. I'm all for this to. We are a server with an almost even divide between action players and rp'ers based on an earlier poll, and I really think that people walk the line between the two quite often based on what I’ve seen as a DM. The action players will typically want to level their characters as efficiently as possible so as to best enjoy the action with a full set of abilities, while the rp’ers will often forgo the xp hunt as the abilities don’t necessarily make the character. What does this mean? Sir C may have exaggerated a bit, but the action players have the ability to level a character into the early 20’s with a few weeks of grinding. (or less than a week with the right build and time dedication) The people that focus on roleplaying will take much longer as they aren’t often out grinding on monsters. It may take months to reach the same levels. If we cut the xp rate in half, it would mean that it could take the hard core action person two weeks to level, or cut it to 1/4th and it’ll take 4 weeks for those uber build. They’ll still have an epic character in less than a month. The roleplaying folks would be the ones that are punished the most (although they may not care) as it could take 6 months to a year to level a character up with their current play style. I don't think the RP crowd gets punished. It just means things slow down period. Not every RP person cares about other players levels. Some certainly do of course. And there are things that can be done to help RP folks. More DM xp for RP'ing. Get more DM's to encourage RP as well. On top of all that, this server is by far the most liberal for XP I have ever seen. I'm assuming most people here have played on other servers and know how the xp distribution is else where. I would think most would be some what understanding of an xp cut just based on the XP Curve across all other servers.
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Post by kendaric on Dec 23, 2008 13:13:52 GMT -5
---snip--- Well I think we should be forced to group to advance in a persistent world. I hate to see peoples solo. I want to see more group contents. So in a simple sentence: Group xp and Group lvling past lvl 10. That wouldn't really work out well I fear. People come from different timezones and that alone can make finding a group to play with difficult since not everyone's playing during the usual peak hours. Then there are character motivations to consider as well, for example a paladin is somewhat limited in regards to the people he'd work together with. Therefore soloing needs to be viable, though I'd say it should be the slowest route to take. Increasing the group rewards could work, but isn't necessary in my opinion since a group can take on tougher fights and still prevail where a lone character could not. Keeping the group exp as they are and lowering the solo exp gain might be a viable alternative to get people to group more. Grouping will also be encouraged by having locked and/or trapped doors/chests and making resting more difficult (either raise the hours needed between rests or making an in-game hour last longer). The latter also makes healing kits and potions a more valuable resource to carry around while in the wilderness. I wouldn't mind seeing level caps per week.. say you can not gain more than 2-3 levels a week (even that is pretty quick I think). I don't know how troublesome that would be or how much work it would entail, but I dont think it's all that much of a stretch to say it should take you at least 7-10 weeks to hit epic. Hell, that would at least give you some time to meet the other players a bit and get involved in a plot line or two. I wouldn't even necessarily use XP point caps - just leveling. If you want to log in and grind til your heart's content thats fine, and your xp will build.. but you won't be able to use the 'level up' function but 2-3 times a week. It will keep people in the lower level areas for longer, force some RP maybe, and slow down the curve. It all comes down to the RP rating. Are we an action server or an RP server? I know we like to be the best of both worlds, but sometimes when two worlds collide it's not pretty (just ask George Costanza). That's a pretty good idea actually. It would at least help to spread out the level ranges somewhat, which might help new players to find people in their own level range to group with.
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meldor
Senior Member
QC Team
Posts: 369
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Post by meldor on Dec 23, 2008 13:24:07 GMT -5
That wouldn't really work out well I fear. People come from different timezones and that alone can make finding a group to play with difficult since not everyone's playing during the usual peak hours. Then there are character motivations to consider as well, for example a paladin is somewhat limited in regards to the people he'd work together with. Therefore soloing needs to be viable, though I'd say it should be the slowest route to take. Increasing the group rewards could work, but isn't necessary in my opinion since a group can take on tougher fights and still prevail where a lone character could not. Keeping the group exp as they are and lowering the solo exp gain might be a viable alternative to get people to group more. Grouping will also be encouraged by having locked and/or trapped doors/chests and making resting more difficult (either raise the hours needed between rests or making an in-game hour last longer). The latter also makes healing kits and potions a more valuable resource to carry around while in the wilderness. Well I understand the timezone thing, but it doesnt mean you cant make a group of 2 or 3 players and do something.. pure soloing should be really restricted to the minimum. This isnt WoW or Everquest it's Dungeons & Dragons. I'm a bit tired of action games. I played most of all the MMO released and it come down to same grinding over and over. DDO has done a good work enforcing grouping but the level restrictions, classes and prestige classes are just not there as well as it's stormreach a world that I cant really get into. All in all, everything is fine as it's now, I would probably just cut xp in half for soloer and give bonus for grouping aswell as adding dungeons and areas where grouping would really shine.
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