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Post by shorn on Dec 6, 2008 21:43:17 GMT -5
I'm not entirely certain where to put this, so Ill post it here for now. Also, being new to the server, I in no way wish to presume anything.
I recently decided to play a svirfneblin supporting druid. That is a heal/buff druid.
The current system seems to be set up to use xp instead of level to determine both xp gained and xp lost on death.
The result of this is that a level 2 svirfneblin gains the xp awarded to a level 4 non ECL, while at the same time losing the xp a level 4 non ECL would as well. When you add into account the xp added to ECL classes by the game designers meant to compensate in the first place, Baldurs Gate is more than tripling the penalty to deep gnomes, and to a less effect, any ECL class.
On the other hand, while I have no reason to believe this is intentional, there is, and will continue to be, controversy over ECL races, due to their inherent benefits, and tendency of powerbuilders to use them. This would seem to me, to be something that would completely dissuade any non powerbuilders to expand into these races, leaving only powerbuilds and a few brave souls doing it for the idea.
So, in short, I would like to know wether this is intentional, and whether it can be fixed. One way to do this is simply by giving xp by level, and xp increasing by a set amount each level to death penalty, but I have no idea how hard that would be to implement, although it seems to be a server standard on most other places I have played.
And, once again, my most humble apologies if I have presumed or insulted in any way.
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Post by DM Sir Carnifex on Dec 6, 2008 22:35:12 GMT -5
The way I understand it, XP is scripted so it is given depending on your PCs XP and not his level. In this way it would be like this:
Example: wolf
PC XP _______ XP gained 0 - 999 .............. 12 XP 1000 - 2999 ........ 7 XP 3000 - 5999 ........ 5 XP And so on. So as you can see, your Svirfneblin would be getting only 5 XP a wolf once he hits 3000 XP even though he is only level one. I'm sure I'll be corrected if this isn't the system, but I'm pretty sure it is.
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Post by shorn on Dec 6, 2008 23:01:37 GMT -5
That was my point. However, it is also possible by level.
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Post by shorn on Dec 7, 2008 0:09:32 GMT -5
Or rather, while that was exactly what I just stated, the point was that ECL races, by doing it by total xp instead of level, are penalized triple, in that they take more xp to level, get less xp, and out of that less xp that they do get, they lose more xp than normal when dying as well.
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Post by mingming on Dec 7, 2008 0:39:12 GMT -5
They are supposed to be penalized. They get more than other races, there *has* to be a downside to playing them. I will offer though that it does seem a bit rough for the respawn penalty to take total xp (which I might add, *is* effective character level aka ECL). However my answer to that may seem counter-intuitive or callous, but is really meant as friendly as possible- Don't Die. That is, don't go soloing, put yourself into a situation where you are outmatched, and risk outrageous chances of death without escape. If you play it careful and cautiously, which is how Svirfneblin are supposed to be roleplayed given their natural enemies, you shouldn't be suffering death and horrible respawn rates.
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Post by luna on Dec 7, 2008 2:00:27 GMT -5
ye.. and here is a link about ECL penalties and how bad they really get. And then there is another table of how bad it gets if your ECL and Multiclassed so your taking even more penalties. It gets pretty ugly if your ECL and are getting penalized for max multiclassing. You need 3.3 times more kills than someone with no XP penalty to keep up XP wise. nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Multiclass_penalty_and_ECL_comparison
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Post by larkin on Dec 7, 2008 2:29:34 GMT -5
Want some cheese to your whine?
Just as a short reminder: The ECL is not capped at a specific level, so you can reach the same maximum level as any non-ECL race. And THAT means a huge advantage in my book. Enough to justify that penalty.
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davidb
Senior Member
Posts: 300
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Post by davidb on Dec 7, 2008 6:12:25 GMT -5
Want some cheese to your whine? Just as a short reminder: The ECL is not capped at a specific level, so you can reach the same maximum level as any non-ECL race. And THAT means a huge advantage in my book. Enough to justify that penalty. No need to be rude to someone that is just asking. Even if I agree with you, things are as they should be.
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Post by larkin on Dec 7, 2008 6:57:31 GMT -5
I can't see anything rude about my comment. My apologies if I crossed the line. I just wonder why people always want everything in their favour, and as soon as they can't have all the goodies at once, they start complaining.
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Post by DM mithari on Dec 7, 2008 7:15:22 GMT -5
The original intent behind the level adjustment system is that a deep gnome (LA +3, correct?) with 3 class levels is supposed to be of equal power as a human/any non-LA race with 6 class levels. LA is not meant to be a penalty. The racial powers are meant to be worth <LA> levels of a class and make you equal. You are meant to get more power from your race, but less from your class. This is how it's balanced (in theory).
For all practical intents and purposes, the +3 are actual levels when it's a disadvantage to you (XP gains) and not levels at all when that instead is a disadvantage (no HP/saves/anything). This, interestingly, means that a deep gnome at start is supposed to be equal to a 4th level character.
It's easy to think of yourself as "just a 1st level character", but that's not what the game thinks (mostly) or how you are meant to think of it. But this is how you will think, since your low hit points (and that's only the beginning) will be a severe thorn in your side when you try to get started.
I'm not sure how the NWN2 game engine treats it however. For adjustment to work as it was designed to in the very first place (for PnP) you'd need to put an XP cap instead of a level cap, thus meaning as a deep gnome you'd get 27 class levels and be done with it. Now how do your powers compare? Would you rather have those, or 3 more epic levels?
In that way, I think this server is very generous, since at level 30 there's not even a debate. With those +3 LA of racial powers on top, you are better than a human in pretty much every single way. But this is due to the fact that LA is not used exactly as it was intended to. Close enough, yes, but not spot on.
Bottom line here is that the problems that arise lie within the level adjustment system itself. The system is something that's not easily fixed since while it's a good idea in theory, the ones who designed all the races were often in disagreement on what is worth a level of a class. If you compare all races to each other, you will find very strange things. It's inevitable that each LA bracket will have some variation, but sometimes one cannot help but wonder what the designers were trying to hide with scented sprays.
If you feel like comparing, start with comparing grey dwarves to genasi. That's beginning to scratch the metaphorical surface of alien decision making processes...
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Post by Zealote on Dec 7, 2008 7:20:57 GMT -5
As far as im concearned, ECL are way too powerful not to get a penalty to xp. Drows and svirfneblin are almost like super-races if you ask me. Have you tried to hit a epic drow with a spell? The SR is crazy, not to mention the stats. And +4 to AC for svirfneblin? Heh, thats huge mate. We dont even have +4 items for other races to compensate. So it is hard to get xp for them, but in the end they own every other race easy, even if you play a weak build (if there is such thing). RDD was banned for being overpowered, so i think the penalty is fine the way it is, unless we want to see overpowered races blasting mobs into oblivion, no matter the class. Also the xp penalty helps to keep them rare, as they are supposed to be.
Just my two cents -Zeal
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Post by Tiefling on Dec 7, 2008 8:26:23 GMT -5
Tieflings ECL -1. Pfft. It would be ok if tieflings would receive simple and martial weapon proficiencies for free - as they should. As for the underdark races, yeah, it is crazy. 41 spell resistance just for being at level 30. Caster: 1d20 + Caster Level + Feats + Bonus for Assay Resistance Defender: Spell Resistance amount + penalties to spell resistance
However, even that can be beaten... *Sighs.* Yay for Wizard 10/RWT 10/ASC 10, or just pure wizards.
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Post by driderman on Dec 7, 2008 8:34:10 GMT -5
Tieflings ECL -1. Pfft. It would be ok if tieflings would receive simple and martial weapon proficiencies for free - as they should. As for the underdark races, yeah, it is crazy. That really doesn't make any sense at all, why should Tieflings receive weapon proficiencies due to their race? As far as I see it, the problems you suffer for chosing an ECL race is what you pay for getting more powerful abilities. Yes, it can be a pain to solo-grind your way up the level-ladder but then again, once you get there you've got advantages that people that didn't have to suffer under ECL didn't. In short: You chose to wear it, don't complain afterwards that it doesn't fit, pick something that fits you instead the next time
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Post by Tiefling on Dec 7, 2008 8:40:30 GMT -5
For being a NATIVE OUTSIDER. Oh and I forgot to mention light armor and shields.
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Post by driderman on Dec 7, 2008 8:56:24 GMT -5
Outsider and Native Outsider really isn't the same. Native Outsider simply means that they can be resurrected/raised and such even though they're techically outsiders. It DOESN'T grant them access to the Outsider racial skills or proficiencies,
Also, it doesn't really make sense for a player character race that will gain class levels to gain weapon proficiencies due to any form of racial tag on them. The weapon proficiencies granted to Fey, Outsiders, Monstrous humanoids and such are granted because they, as NPCs, don't necessarily have any levels except for creature levels
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