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Post by CrispyWalrus on Apr 24, 2009 15:52:46 GMT -5
We've been discussing what is and what is not PvP in another thread. For those who don't already know it means Player verus Player, but what does that actually mean? This is the question that has been debated. One participant suggested a poll to gauge public opinion. Another said that it was only the vocal minority who felt a particular way. Both may be right, so here is a poll I made about what could define PvP . This way folks who are not vocal can still vote to voice an opinion and those that are have a new place to rant. ;D I tried to pull in all the various things I've heard about PvP since I've been playing here. As it stands currently the rules (for those not opting in to the PvP Fan Club) are that players set their intended target to hostile and offer some out to conflict. The rules state OOC, but I'm more for IC outs myself as it is IC that brought us to the brink of PvP to start. Either way some sort of out should be offered so it isn't all one-sided god mode. My experience has been that folks usually offer you an IC out (albeit grovel to me-- I'm impossible ) but neglect the set hostile. Specifically the applicable rules are: 1. This is a role-play server but you aren't forced to role-play. If you don't want to role-play thats fine, just don't ruin it for people who do. (I included Rule #1 because imo no one should be able to roleplay a conflict to the point someone is ready to beat you down and then hide behind rule #9)
8. If your going to get into Player vs Player for ANY reason, be it racism, threats, ANY sort of conflict, offer them an OOC out of the situation, its ok to warn them that the next conflict is unavoidable, we dont want to limit RP but consideration should be used. 9. Some people don’t like PVP period and are uncomfortable with it, if someone says they don’t like PVP do NOT force it on them, forcing PVP on someone who told you they don’t want it is very bad. 24. If you Pickpocket someone you consent to PvP. * (Currently Pickpocketing is not allowed)
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Post by adzling on Apr 24, 2009 16:04:50 GMT -5
xclnt thread, well done for putting this together crispy have some karma ;-)
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Post by thevoid on Apr 24, 2009 16:28:20 GMT -5
Since we are talking about this I for one think the PvP rules are ridiculous, talk about a bunch of immature wussies who play a game and can't stand getting bested? Are players' egos so fragile that they can't afford humility? That one instance of a NON LETHAL beat down, that affords no penalty or any permenant loss can utterly shatter the heroic visage of your toon? And we still call this server an RP server? This is a game in fantasy setting where people fight and die for all sorts of absurd (and often ridiculous) reasons. I can totally understand the avoidance of PvP if it did cause ig consequences to the victim (such as monetary/xp losses), but there isn't anything like this and with that no potential loss except a breif moment of pride in your toon. I think people who advocate no PvP just can't separate themselves from their characters, which is really pathetic. YOU ARE NOT YOUR CHARACTER! You don't cast magic spells or wave a humungous sword while wearing a chainmail bikini against hordes of creatures bent on slaying you for really no reason other than you exist! And YOU as a person do not get hurt by loosing a fight, your PC does. I've been on PW's that are Hardcore RP, that promote PvP without any sort of consent and I never seen any amount of abuse of it, because mature people police themselves. Everyone also talks about MAGES and clerics being all SO POWERFUL, so powerful that we need to have nerfs to screw them over because they aren't fair in a PvP fight anyways. I tell you what, the reason they are so POWERFUL here is because the PVP rules allow them to be. If you didn't have to ask for consent to attack them (only set hostile) they be dead against any melee class after the first 3 rounds since they got nothing and can't cast while your wailing on them. So those casting classes are not as powerful as everyone assumes, they are only this way because the rules give them time to prepare to kill your ass the second you send them a tell saying "Well? Can I?"....
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Post by CrispyWalrus on Apr 24, 2009 16:45:33 GMT -5
I can totally understand the avoidance of PvP if it did cause ig consequences to the victim (such as monetary/xp losses), but there isn't anything like this and with that no potential loss except a breif moment of pride in your toon. Some of this did come up in our previous discussion. There is an IG consequence of CON (HP) loss to killing a mage's familiar. Granted it can be alleviated by resummoning and resting and has a much larger affect the more levels one has. There are also certainly IG penalties to the victim with pickpocketing, but "pure" PvP has no consequences as you point out. Everyone also talks about MAGES and clerics being all SO POWERFUL, so powerful that we need to have nerfs to screw them over because they aren't fair in a PvP fight anyways. I tell you what, the reason they are so POWERFUL here is because the PVP rules allow them to be. If you didn't have to ask for consent to attack them (only set hostile) they be dead against any melee class after the first 3 rounds since they got nothing and can't cast while your wailing on them. So those casting classes are not as powerful as everyone assumes, they are only this way because the rules give them time to prepare to kill your ass the second you send them a tell saying "Well? Can I?".... Quite true!
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Post by DEV Jlf2n on Apr 24, 2009 17:22:14 GMT -5
Since we are talking about this I for one think the PvP rules are ridiculous, talk about a bunch of immature wussies who play a game and can't stand getting bested? Are players' egos so fragile that they can't afford humility? That one instance of a NON LETHAL beat down, that affords no penalty or any permenant loss can utterly shatter the heroic visage of your toon? And we still call this server an RP server? This is a game in fantasy setting where people fight and die for all sorts of absurd (and often ridiculous) reasons. I can totally understand the avoidance of PvP if it did cause ig consequences to the victim (such as monetary/xp losses), but there isn't anything like this and with that no potential loss except a breif moment of pride in your toon. I think people who advocate no PvP just can't separate themselves from their characters, which is really pathetic. YOU ARE NOT YOUR CHARACTER! You don't cast magic spells or wave a humungous sword while wearing a chainmail bikini against hordes of creatures bent on slaying you for really no reason other than you exist! And YOU as a person do not get hurt by loosing a fight, your PC does. I've been on PW's that are Hardcore RP, that promote PvP without any sort of consent and I never seen any amount of abuse of it, because mature people police themselves. Everyone also talks about MAGES and clerics being all SO POWERFUL, so powerful that we need to have nerfs to screw them over because they aren't fair in a PvP fight anyways. I tell you what, the reason they are so POWERFUL here is because the PVP rules allow them to be. If you didn't have to ask for consent to attack them (only set hostile) they be dead against any melee class after the first 3 rounds since they got nothing and can't cast while your wailing on them. So those casting classes are not as powerful as everyone assumes, they are only this way because the rules give them time to prepare to kill your ass the second you send them a tell saying "Well? Can I?".... I actually agree with you thevoid it does suck. PvP should be without warning. But unfortunately the people who don't like PvP are far more vocal than those who do. IF PvP were opened up we would get a ton of complaint PMs and have tons of drama going on. Dealing with that stuff isn't what any of us consider a fun, rewarding hobby. Besides, we want to cater to a wide range of people.
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Post by thevoid on Apr 24, 2009 17:33:37 GMT -5
Thank you, that was a completely honest and direct answer, I'm sorry that you have to compromise so much because of the faults of others.
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Post by DM Sir Carnifex on Apr 24, 2009 19:14:07 GMT -5
I'd like pure PvP without consent as well. We should do a two week trial run and see how many PMs the DMs get. ;D
As a side note, I find the best way to send a Tell is to say "Do you consent to PvP? If you do not respond, I'll take that as a yes." Then I give a little time for a response and meanwhile I hit hostile. Still gives the person a chance and it's the least annoying way for me to do it.
As to the poll. . . I wasn't going to vote . . . but you made it so I can't see the results without doing so! EVIL!!!
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broham1
Senior Member
QC Team - Karmic swing
Posts: 386
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Post by broham1 on Apr 24, 2009 19:48:22 GMT -5
Don't get my previous posts confused (In the other thread)...I enjoy PvP as well...But if rules are set in place they should be followed..no excuses...Right? You can ask quite a few people that Durak has cut in half, they will tell you that PvP is cool with me...I would actually like to be in the club...but there is no punishment set up for those that don't follow the rules...
If I just willy nilly walked through the server killing people (Which is within Durak's RP to do so) the staff would have a fit. Why do you all think i quit playing him...it not because i wanted to...it because i got sick of all the complaining all the freakin time!
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Post by broham2 on Apr 24, 2009 21:06:07 GMT -5
PvP without warning is cool. I enjoyed my time in the PvP club. PvP that doesn't adhere to pre-set procedures though (like setting hostile) can ruin that quick though.
That said, PvP has been nothing but trouble for me. It took the Imp and had her metagamed to all hell to the point where it was impossible to play her anymore without people "just knowing" she was an assassin because of previous attacks, etc..... so I just prefer not to engage it anymore, at least not until I know that the people that want to attack me are mature RPers that can follow rules and differentiate IC and OOC info. Like Flail the other night. I have no worries that rules would be followed and IC and OOC info would remain separated.
But that isnt what this thread is about, is it? Arent we lookin for a definition of what is and what is not pvp so that we can all be on the same page?
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Post by katzenjammer on Apr 25, 2009 5:38:48 GMT -5
I'd prefer it to be without warning myself, except that I would -definitely- like there to be a reason for it. Having come from an Age of Conan server (supposedly RP, but seriously lacking in that) back to NWN2, I gotta say that it DID get damned annoying to get attacked constantly for absolutely no reason regardless of if I won or lost. PvP with a reason, a plot, some sort of thought behind it is GREAT, win or loose. However, if it went to that, PvP avaliable without warning at any time, would we end up with dozens of bandits suddenly ambushing everyone on the road? No RP involved, just basically ganking? I'd like to think it wouldn't, but some people are simply out to own others and get their giggles out of it. And that doesn't even go into the thought of "hey, he looks evil, excuse to PvP?" Or good, as the case may be. While it is true that PC's don't give xp when you kill them (that I know of), would they simply become more mobs in some eyes? That is definitely not why I play a RPg (note emphasis on the RP). If I'm out for a bit of wild mayhem and butchery, I have first person shooters
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Post by lootall on Apr 25, 2009 11:23:45 GMT -5
so, spanking your character because of his australian accent, and facial hair reminding me of my ex's dad is not good form then, Katzenjammer?
On a serious note, I think one of the main problems is rule #1. Any bad pvp experiences I may have had stemmed directly from a lack of rp leading into it. Heck, even on this server I was once PK'd without a word by some drow while helping out a new player.. and that was part of an event! Didn't even get an emote before I was dropped. It just seemed... really pointless.
I think the problems we're seeing will persist until such a time when rp becomes mandatory.
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liruna
Member
Luridel
Posts: 59
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Post by liruna on Apr 25, 2009 12:17:05 GMT -5
My character(s) have the following message in their in-game biographies for a reason:
While I'm willing to deal with whatever happens to come up, I would appreciate the OOC courtesy of an advance warning. I would like to think that I'm a mature enough person to continue on roleplaying without metagaming that my character knows she's about to be attacked (unless it's obvious). Sometimes when I'm RPing I may also be slightly distracted by things going on in real life (my family likes to bother me), and it helps to know when I need to seriously focus on what's going on in-game and tune everything else out.
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Post by Erulaan D'Anhoor on Apr 25, 2009 12:18:23 GMT -5
Karma to Void
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Post by DM Sir Carnifex on Apr 25, 2009 12:26:49 GMT -5
Hmm. As of this post, there have been twenty-two voters and only twenty people believe that attacking another PC should go under the PvP rules. Strange.
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Post by katzenjammer on Apr 25, 2009 13:27:33 GMT -5
LOL if there was not RP leading to it, then yeah, that would not be good form in my opinion. There can only be a few foaming at the mouth maniacs in the world that attack random people on sight before that sort of thing gets old quick. And my own PC's have a PvP note in their own descriptions as well, basically to just have an RP reason behind the attack. I think we are in basic agreement . I do agree with Void, also, casters are not an issue when playing a melee type if you don't give them a chance to ready spells. However, on another note, while I can see his point on non PvP oriented players possibly having difficulty with their character being killed, I do think the reverse can also be true in many cases. Some players lack maturity in the other direction, being munchkins who don't care who's game they mess up so long as they get their giggles by killing them. I've been lucky enough so far in the people I've met here, I don't believe any of them are that sort. But I'm sure we'll find a few, give it time. What would be the point at which a line would be drawn and such players would be banned for being a**hats, rather than good players who happen to have an RP issue w/ your character and kill them?
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