|
Post by adictame on Aug 1, 2008 5:17:17 GMT -5
I realy like the idea of per character, or class specific drops, i would think, preferably rather then having a single mob drop a chest for each person in the party, have a random system to drop a specific item for one person in the party... thus forcing groups of people to venture out together multiple times to help eachother each obtain weapons of mass destruction... im not sure how difficult that would be to script into the game, but i do agree that it is a very good idea...
on the subject of good ideas...i dont mean to flood the forum with requests... but since it is a post what you want to see section.... I think a realy good idea would be to incorporate skill checks in an abundance of things, i would say preferably in a ridiculous amount of things.... from playing about every nwn2 online pw, ive noticed that there is realy no need for rogues... basicly, at all... which is kind of disapointing... fighters are very usefull for tanking, and dmg... no dispute there... but rogues sacrifice the ability to take dmg and sometimes deal dmg so that they can be a more utility... but no server ive ever played on has properly implimented any of the bluff, intimidate, diplomacy, appraise, search, spot, listen, or even Lockpick ! what good is a rogue if there are no locks that need pickin !
seriously, if you want to make roleplayers happy, add a sh!t-ton of skill checks for all kinds of dialogue skills, make dungeons that you literaly cannot enter withought a seriously high lvl rogue with mad lockpicking skills, or maybe give a guard a key to pickpocket or something... i know i would be more than willing to sacrifice alot of my battle abilities to be the utility for the group, as would anyone that likes to roleplay a swashbuckling rogue, or an intelligent well spoken wizard.
i feel withought the proper overuse of these skills on a server, just about anyone can get by making all of there characters with 8-10 intelligence, just picking fighter types with skill in heal.. why make a rogue at all if the group is never going to use there main skill... insane amounts of skill points... why make anything but a multiclass fighter if you can get by with just heal and UMD and bashing open everything that stands in between you and treasure...
force people to have a high persuasion or bluff to be able to take a quest, force people to have a high search or spot to be able to finish the quest... which in turn, would force people to roleplay there class instead of just going for insane amounts of AB + AC to slaughter there way to high lvls and ultimatly uber status... while not actually needing anything other then the tolerance for tedious grinding...
make group style quests that require a diplomatic character to initiate the quest, a strong group of melee characters to get to the bottom of a dungeon, and a rogue to steal or lockpick the item for retrieval and incorporate a sense of demand for all skills, styles, playstyles, instead of just being able to mindlessly slaughter your way to uberness...
and at most, i am only implying that these skill rolls be added, i am not trying to say that you should lower the exp to 12 xp per kill so that the people that want to grind there way through lvls get boned... theres plenty of rp servers that hate on people that like to kill for there exp... which imo is retarded...
again, as always i love critisism, and im just trying to suggest things that would appeal to the majority while at the same time not trying to turn off any single type of playstyle..
=)
|
|
atlas
Active Member
Posts: 177
|
Post by atlas on Aug 2, 2008 0:04:04 GMT -5
I dont buy that some classes are supposed to be better than others just because Obsidian or Wizards Of The Coast or whoever likes them more. I believe in a fair go and equality and i dont want to play a game where there are some classes that are just plain better than others at everything. For intance why play a Paladin when a Cleric/Warpriest is just plain better by a long shot? If this place stays a low magic server thats the way its going to be. There is nothing good, nothing fair or right about that, everyone deserves a fair go, to shine at their designated profession. The game was designed to be the most balanced when +5 equipment is attainable by level 20 and failing to do so will kill many peoples characters including mine.
To those people who want +2 weapons to be rare and legendary, i dont know if you've read many Forgotten Realms books but Paladins for intance are supposed to be some of the most powerful warriors on the face of Faerun. Without decent equipment available the equasion is just not equal.
Ive played on too many low magic servers including that unholy Shores Of Haldun where the magic setting made some classes like Paladin worthless. I played there for eight months and my character was fodder to be laughed at and ridiculed. The corrupt Dm's, favourtism and absoloute corrupt society did not help either. It wasnt that Berkatan (the continent where its set in its universe) was a thoroughly evil place where every official and person of power was corrupt, it was the fact that there was no support for people like me who actualy played a good guy. Every good guy who actualy plays their alignment properly in the cult of Haldun is shat upon, which is the warning, then permanently killed. Evil rules the roost full stop nothing you can do about it.
What pissed me off the most was that my character was pretty much the only good person in all of Haldun and when he was finally perma killed after eight months the other so called "Good" guys, a Paladin included, looked on and ridiculed me. When i tried to address the inbalances on the forum i would get responces from people saying ridiculous things like:
"Paladins are not supposed to be as powerfull as the other classes"
And people with ridiculously overpowered Stormlords and Favoured Souls would say things like:
"Holy Sword is overpowered"
Knowing full well that Paladins are underpowered in every way. It wasnt just classes either, they purposly made some of their races more powerfull than others (Some were just plain shit house) and their justification was so more people would play them.
What i am trying to say is you dont want to go down this road. Nwn2 or DND in general will never be a balanced game, but with a little thought involved for what people play it can sure be alot more balanced than a low magic server.
|
|
|
Post by adictame on Aug 2, 2008 1:04:48 GMT -5
i understand what your saying about how some classes need items to match up to some of the stronger classes...and i dont completely disagree, but i realy dont think that everyone should be balanced...i'd just hate to see NWN2 turn into a game like world of warcraft, where any class can beat any class just because they have better stuff.... theres no playerskill involved in that... it just goes to whoever has more time to waste on grinding and getting better stuff... playerskill resides in being able to create more powerfull class/race combinations.. if a pure paladin isnt as powerfull as someone else then you just have to learn how to make better builds ( and i dont mean you, Atlas. I mean you as a general of whoever is reading this ) . I feel for your plight, i realy do, back in the day of D&D creation where max lvl was 9 and multiclassing more then 2 classes together was a road through hell... paladins were more powerfull... but the times and lvl changes have happened, and playing pure classes is kind of left as a disadvantage now compared to taking 2 to 4 classes to lvl 20 or 40... and its not all about who can do the most dmg, or if a pure pally can do as much dmg as a cleric or rogue... its about each class having there own strengths and weaknesses... if you've ever seen a paladin mixed with some weaponmaster lvls wielding a greataxe or a scythe smiting evil with x4 or x5 criticals for hundreds of dmg theres no way a rogue or fighter could compare to that dmg.... sure he might not do as good of an average dmg against orcs or gnolls, but fighters and rogues would never be able to match a paladins ability to fight undead. magic weapons or not.
and im not trying to advocate a no magic server like haldun for example... and im not trying to say that +5 weapons are ridiculous, i just think if its necessary to make realy powerfull items realy difficult to get, if it was easy to get a +4 sword for any class, then plenty of clerical buff spells would become useless, if it was easy to get +4 armor noone would need a cleric in the party for buffs, a fighter/wm could suffice to handle anything... and instead of becoming a part of a group, they would rather just take on everything by themselves...
basicly everything is balanced, for every pickpocket attempt theres a spot check, for every undead crit immunity theres a paladins smite evil, for every extremely overbuffed cleric theres a dispell magic... but its not about balance, its about playstyle, and in some cases just the fun of roleplaying a class... i personally enjoy playing classes with alot of skills, and party buffs, not realy being the highest dmg class, or the best equiped... if you enjoy playing a fundamentaly overzealous paladin, then a pure pally will still do dmg, and be able to wear plate... but if your that worried about sucking compared to another class, well.. then its time to start settin up your paladin with some lvls in another class to pickup the slack of a pure class...
all in all, if everyone was the same, there would be no need for anyone...its the diversity, and roleplayabilty that creates the need for certain classes, and the fun in watching people enjoy playing those classes...
|
|
atlas
Active Member
Posts: 177
|
Post by atlas on Aug 2, 2008 5:12:04 GMT -5
The idea of balance is that every base class is supposed to shine in a certain area. prestige classes are supposed to augment or enhance where you plan on going as a base class. Now lets look at Paladins for example (Yes Paladins again, its because i know them the best having played them since Baldur's gate1):
They have no prestige class to enhance them..dont say Divine Champion, they are not Champions Of Torm which means:
No extra Lay On Hands..(Was supposed to be in Nwn1 but wasnt)
No more Smite Evil or stacking of its power, Clerics make better DC's because they can just take the Destruction domain and stack Smite Infidel.
Divine Wrath no longer improves and is capped at a +3 sacred bonus for 12-14 rounds at best and thats if you cut your leg off by going all charisma and no strength.
You lose your 3rd and 4th level spells, not that they're good for anything anyway, especialy now that the Paladin's caster level has been halved.
So Divine Champion is no good, what do you get by taking at least 15 levels of Paladin?
No armour buffs, +5 ac from Barkskin at level 20 from a Ranger is currently better than any spell a Paladin gets.
Aura Of Courage can be taken by Clerics aswell plus it doesnt even work..thankyou Obsidian.
Bless Weapon..one of two semi decent spell a Paladin gets..now that their caster level is halved it lasts for 15 in game hours with 30 levels of Paladin...thankyou Obsidian.
Protection From Alignment, the other semi decent spell. Grants immunity to mind spells however almost every caster gets this spell so whoope do.
Divine Grace is only usefull if you go all charisma plus Blackguards get this aswell. Really a Blackguard/Warlock or Blackguard/Sorcerer is better because you need only two levels instead of 3...plus a character with only 3 levels of Paladin and a heap of Sorcerer or whatever is not a Paladin in my books.
Lay On Hands is only usefull if you again go all charisma PLUS you cant even target Undead with it like you're supposed to..thankyou Obsidian.
Smite Evil...their only decent feat..but as it stands now taking more than four levels in Paladin on a low magic server is like plucking out your eye's. Now think about this, you could be a Cleric/Divine Champion/Weaponmaster, get Great Smiting in epic level's plus all the great spells of a Cleric AND if you're Lawfull Good you can smite chaotic AND evil opponents..so where does the Paladin shine again?
My character is currently a level 16 Paladin and i have designed him to be a heavy hitter and use a greatsword because its always been my favourite weapon. His next four levels will be fighter and after that i really dont want to think about it. I would VERY much like levels 21-30 to be Frenzied Berserker to augment his heavy hitting cappability and because he's a Half-Orc and rage runs in an Orc's blood.
I got to level 16 by basically being babied by Spellcasters. I would stand in the corner and watch Lemmar incinerate Undead with spells like Fire Wall. (Huh? The guy who's profession is to destroy super natural horrors like Undead cant actualy kill any because his AC is too crap due to poor equipment) Hell Lemmar can just cast Tenser's Transformation and due about half as much damage but at least he doesnt die.
When i said +5 equipment i didnt mean you could just go and buy Drizzt's Scimitars from Maltz, i meant they were attainable. The split should be +1-3 at levels 1-15 and +4-5 from 16-20. Things like Holy Avengers, which are supposed to be the most powerful weapons in Faerun, should be attainable by Paladins via a holy quest. For instance in Baldur's Gate 2 the Order Of The Most Radiant sends you on a quest to recover Carsomyr from Firkraag the evil Red Dragon if you are a Paladin. Carsomyr and especialy with the Eye of Tyr is one of the most powerful weapons on the face of Faerun, Helm himself had a hand in forging it. Makes sense that an evil Red Dragon would try and keep this out of a Paladin's hands doesnt it?
Bosses that drop powerful weapons and armour etc is something i would like to see.
Lastly Fighters or Fighter/Weaponmasters with 13 intelligence do not suffer anywhere near as much as a fighter type without it because they can get Combat Expertise/Improved Combat Expertise. Thats +3/+6 AC and its not like they need the AB. Fighter/Weaponmaster/Rogue/whatnots with a million scrolls is definatly something i do not want to see also.
|
|
|
Post by blackdiamonds on Aug 2, 2008 5:51:05 GMT -5
here is your answer
Pally lvl 1 Sorc lvl 2 Pally lvl 3 - 5 Rdd lvl 6 - 15 Divine Champ lvl 16 - 18 Pally 19 - 20 Divine Champ lvl 21 - 22 Pally lvl 23 - 30
your ending str will be 40
your starting stats should be: STR 18 Dex 12 Con 12 Int 12 Wis 14 Cha 10
this should give you a decent pally build with plenty of saves, str and HA as well to deal the dmg you are looking for.
the feats are left for you to figure out what you want
oh by the way you do not need combat expertise
|
|
|
Post by Iceshard on Aug 2, 2008 8:14:15 GMT -5
Shores of Haldun- Max + was 3 that I saw, otherwise yes, it was all clicks, DM's playing favoritism, and not so much in terms of great RP either. Atlas who did you play? As for our items, the max I have made right now is +3 with all kinds of other goodies, only a very minimal portion of those are Class restricted. I think if someone wants to use something they should be able to. However at a later time I may work on more class restricted items. Also Im not making anything higher than +3 as it is right now untill I get the green light from JLF. Also hate to break it to you guys, but with level restrictions in.. you wont be able to touch a holy avenger untill level 20 or higher Other gear you would like to see is also limited by these restrictions, so some of the things you want, you wouldnt be able to use anyways. As for skill checks being used, we are working on that, and we generally use a lot of them in our events ( I at least use spot, search and listen a lot ). So be a little patient with us as Jason is working on quests and she just needs some time to implement skill checks with them, as well as alignment shifts. So just bare with us guys, we have heard and taken into consideration what everyone has said and most of which has been or will be implemented. Just bare with us, thanks -Ice
|
|
|
Post by DEV Jlf2n on Aug 2, 2008 8:59:29 GMT -5
I can't remember where but someone spoke on the lack of need for Thief class in most PW.s It is our intention to make high level dungeons party oriented so that at least 3 or 4 classes are needed.
I'm not just talking about CR level either. Things like traps only thieves can undo, anti-magic areas, doors only a certain strength can open etc.
|
|
|
Post by blackdiamonds on Aug 2, 2008 9:10:50 GMT -5
in the build mentioned above ha is attained at lvl 30 and you need to be an asimar as well so you have a +1 penalty for xp
|
|
atlas
Active Member
Posts: 177
|
Post by atlas on Aug 2, 2008 13:03:25 GMT -5
I agree that the Holy Avenger is a level 20+ weapon, not sure if i stated that.
I played Arkaine on Shores Of Haldun.. and i want my eight months back..
Im not trying to pressure you guys, just having a debate with Adictame (Though i was never very good at debates). Everything will get worked out in time.
|
|
tlantl
Active Member
Posts: 198
|
Post by tlantl on Aug 2, 2008 13:43:45 GMT -5
Along the lines of the last few posts, I think that some quests designed for rogues, bards, and skill based character builds would be nice. A few rogue quests which are designed specifically for those of us who focus on stealth skilled characters, where they have to sneak past guards and into occupied rooms with the intent of robbing the inhabitants, not killing them.
Quest failure being dependent upon a set of objectives being met.
For those who would like to kill for profit, political advantage, or the disruption such a killing would cause, there might be assassination scenarios.
We have three large urban sites with nothing going on in them. there could be some inner city missions for those who are best suited to these (mostly criminal) types of jobs.
Harper missions fall into this category, as would other factions.
As for the trend of players choosing the most powerful character builds, having quests where those types of characters are a liability can reduce the number of them and increase appearance of the weaker but more elegant builds.
|
|
Thief Of Navarre
Active Member
When you get to the end of your rope, tie a knot in it and hang on!
Posts: 78
|
Post by Thief Of Navarre on Aug 2, 2008 13:45:10 GMT -5
Yes, paladins arnt very good in a low magic environment, but from an RP perspective If you like playing Paladins you've just going to have to get baby'd by the caster powerbuilds.
I like playing certain classes regardless of how badly they play out! (rogues against undead which make up 80% of the bulk of any D&D campaign!).
|
|
|
Post by Iceshard on Aug 2, 2008 14:06:44 GMT -5
a quick heads up, I checked The Holy Avenger weapon OBE created.. it requires level 24 to use.. however I could always create watered down versions if need be. -Ice
|
|
atlas
Active Member
Posts: 177
|
Post by atlas on Aug 2, 2008 15:59:13 GMT -5
Waiting until level 24 is perfectly alright with me, they are supposed to be extremely powerful weapons afterall and level 21+ is the epic level range at which point your character is considered extremely powerful. How one can be obtained, whether through a static quest or a DM quest or whatever you have in mind is up to you guys (Dm's).
|
|
|
Post by govols on Aug 2, 2008 16:49:08 GMT -5
Waiting until level 24 is perfectly alright with me, they are supposed to be extremely powerful weapons afterall and level 21+ is the epic level range at which point your character is considered extremely powerful. How one can be obtained, whether through a static quest or a DM quest or whatever you have in mind is up to you guys (Dm's). With the level of magic here I would doubt you'd get a weapon with the HA property on a drop. As a Paly though you only need the 15 levels necessary to cast the HA spell.
|
|
|
Post by otomotetsuo on Aug 3, 2008 1:07:57 GMT -5
Just wanted to clarify that when I suggested the 'party-chest' idea, I did not mean to say that multiple chests should be spawned.
My intention was to suggest that one chest should be spawned by killing a mob, as per usual at a random frequency, and inside this chest should be a single loot drop per every active member of the killer's party. Keep in mind that a single loot drop, in loot generation script terms, does not necessarily mean a single 'item'. (As most of you know) One loot drop could consist of a little bit of gp, a trinket and a gem or any similar combination of items and or loot. What would be unique about this system is that each party member would only be able to remove the items that were 'tagged' specifically for them from the chest.
Additionally: The logistics of scripting this feature is something that I would love to discuss further through PM's with anyone willing to take a stab at it.
Hope that this portrays my intended meaning more clearly than the first post.
-Otomo Tetsuo
|
|