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Guilds
Jan 14, 2009 11:22:56 GMT -5
Post by adzling on Jan 14, 2009 11:22:56 GMT -5
makes sense, i'd be all for "only one toon can join guilds", i was just seeking a more moderate position to make it palatable to more players.
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Guilds
Jan 14, 2009 11:35:34 GMT -5
Post by broham2 on Jan 14, 2009 11:35:34 GMT -5
Man, make an example of the Metagamers if there are any, and let the rest of us play and have fun like we have been.
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Guilds
Jan 14, 2009 11:42:38 GMT -5
Post by caveman282 on Jan 14, 2009 11:42:38 GMT -5
I think 1 guild per account is a little much considering the player number base.
I think 1 guild per char would be more fitting cause someone with a rogue might want to be in the theives guild and if they have a wizard too they may want to join the weavemasters for acess to spells.
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Guilds
Jan 14, 2009 11:44:07 GMT -5
Post by adzling on Jan 14, 2009 11:44:07 GMT -5
per my previous post you should be able to understand that metagaming can be very hard to track to its source and sometimes completely impossible so very often you don't even know that metagaming is going on (see your own previous comments broham2).
One of the marks of a good RP server is the control of rampant metagaming and guild membership is critical to this.
You can still have plenty of fun with one toon in multiple guilds.
Be happy that the quality of your RP is being preserved broham2.
It's not essential for you as a player to know everything going on everywhere on the server.
I have seen it kill secret RP plots and it will happen here (if it hasnt already).
"I think 1 guild per char would be more fitting cause someone with a rogue might want to be in the theives guild and if they have a wizard too they may want to join the weavemasters for acess to spells."
caveman your missing the point. 1 guild per toon IS the problem as information is passed between toons OOC. mutiple guilds for a single toon is fine as the information is passed IC and people have an IC method to respond (and ferret out leaks) which is as it should be.
Access to magical spells should NOT be dependent upon guild membership, so if that is currently the case on the surface (it's not in the UD) then the merchants should be fixed by the devs to correct this.
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Guilds
Jan 14, 2009 12:03:45 GMT -5
Post by broham2 on Jan 14, 2009 12:03:45 GMT -5
Dude, come on.. you are pretty new to this server, and I don’t think I’ve even seen you playin on the surface yet (I could be wrong). Do you really understand the surface guilds that would be cut in half due to a ruling like this? It wouldn’t preserve RP, it would hinder it. If I get one character in guilds then I will be taking a member away from at least 3 guilds. I am not the only one. The guilds will quickly become irrelevant when they are down to 2-3 members.
I understand you had issues on previous servers, but I’ve been here for a while and been involved in a few guilds, and I haven’t had any problems at all. All I’m sayin is that if we start putting in rules to prevent what might happen, or what is being done by a small group of metagamers, we will impact everyone’s experience.. because there are not enough players with evil main characters on the surface to sustain the Thieves/Assassins, the Zhents, and the Shadow Cabal… just as an example.
Some of the best RPers we have currently play members of competing guilds.. evil vs good. Without them involved the guilds would surely suffer, whither, and be more of a label than an actual fellowship.
I don’t really want to choose which characters I want to ruin because someone couldn’t play a game without being a douche.
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Guilds
Jan 14, 2009 12:14:47 GMT -5
Post by caveman282 on Jan 14, 2009 12:14:47 GMT -5
caveman your missing the point. 1 guild per toon IS the problem as information is passed between toons OOC. mutiple guilds for a single toon is fine as the information is passed IC and people have an IC method to respond (and ferret out leaks) which is as it should be. You won't be able to stop metagaming people will always do it and find a way around it. Why punish everyone else? I have a rogue who is in a guild and I have a druid who is in the druid guild. If this rule is enforced I will delete all but one char on my current account and make an account for each char I make. This way I can and will have chars in the guilds I wish them to be in. ^^ see that is just one way around it.
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Guilds
Jan 14, 2009 12:21:18 GMT -5
Post by Iceshard on Jan 14, 2009 12:21:18 GMT -5
As Ive said before, just hold your responses untill a concrete decision is reached. Since most of you have several characters in several guilds, Im sure nothing drastic will happen. Just remember as it has been in the past, any metagaming from opposing guilds will be crushed with an iron fist..
-Ice
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Guilds
Jan 14, 2009 12:42:00 GMT -5
Post by DEV Jlf2n on Jan 14, 2009 12:42:00 GMT -5
I personally have no problem with people being in multiple guilds. Now maybe some of the more secret guilds would prefer only 1 membership but if you have a cleric who wants to join a church and a wizard who wants to join the Weave Masters where is the harm in that?
When you start making rules like this your taking it to seriously. Relax and have fun. I don't understand why so many people have to hinge their good time on what someone else is doing.
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Guilds
Jan 14, 2009 13:00:15 GMT -5
Post by adzling on Jan 14, 2009 13:00:15 GMT -5
it is possible to craft restrictions so they are reasonable and work with the server's guild setup rather than screaming "noos" because you want to have a finger in everything on the server.
An example: Perhaps given the great variety of church based guilds (that are not present on many other servers) it should be allowed for any toon to belong to the church of the god they worship. This would be an exception the rule of only one toon being allowed membership in guilds.
Or another thing that could be considered is no ALT toons having membership in guilds with obviously opposing interests. (i.e. no player with one toon in thieves guild and an ALT toon in the flaming fist).
As has been pointed out broham2 metagaming has already occurred on this server, and as i have pointed out metagaming most likely is going on already without anyone knowing about AS IT ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO DETECT very often. You will just find that secret RP plots start to collapse as people "find out about them" some mysterious way.
Your experience on this server so far is most likely due to the current beta status and lower number of players. As it increases (and it will, it already is. I know a bunch of people from TFR that have come over recently) the metagaming problem will only increase.
So far there have been no reasonable arguments NOT to implement this kind of anti-metagaming measure beyond "please don't i don't like it cause it would damage my ability to do everything on the server". This is akin to "please don't fix that exploit as my toon is built around being able to misuse the stone body spell" as an example.
It would be much more helpful if people posted issues they see with such a policy. example: what of toons who need to members of a church guild because they are clerics? see my reasoned response above. example: what of toons that need to access the weavers guild for spells? see my reasoned response above. example: well screw you i dont agree so im just going to create multiple accounts and do what the hell i want anyway! my response: more power to you but if you are caught (and it's not to difficult over time to catch these kind of things) then you will be first warned, then if you continue to abuse booted from the server for ignoring the server rules much as any similar abuse of the server would be treated.
I'm sorry that things will need to change over time to ensure RP is protected but that's the way of the world. Example: devs removed persistent spell and plugged some of the worst abuses of clerical domains and spells. A lot of people complained because they felt that they could no longer use these unbalancing powers. Now it's done and it seems to be working great.
I agree with you on one point broham2: it is sad that restrictions have to be placed on the way the server works (and people play on it) because of a few douches. However in an anonymous environment where anyone can join douchebaggery will and does occur (see all the exploit monkeys out there building to exploit bugs in the game), it makes sense that the devs would like to restrict such douchebaggery so it does not destroy the game for all. Living with such minimal restrictions as they see essential is a small price to pay for a well-run, functioning and fun RP environment.
There are plenty of servers that have no such restrictions (and they tend to become the playground of childish exploiters and metagamers of the worst kind), check them out then tell me you don't want the devs to take reasonable precautions against game destroying exploits. I already have had the experience first hand of such things and this server will not be immune to it. They will come, although i am sure they already here.
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Guilds
Jan 14, 2009 13:10:16 GMT -5
Post by caveman282 on Jan 14, 2009 13:10:16 GMT -5
I personally have no problem with people being in multiple guilds. Now maybe some of the more secret guilds would prefer only 1 membership but if you have a cleric who wants to join a church and a wizard who wants to join the Weave Masters where is the harm in that? When you start making rules like this your taking it to seriously. Relax and have fun. I don't understand why so many people have to hinge their good time on what someone else is doing. ^^ He has spoken!! Anything else is irrelevant I think the direction of the server is good. Its considerd RP lite so theres no reason to enforce such strict regulations.
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Guilds
Jan 14, 2009 13:12:10 GMT -5
Post by adzling on Jan 14, 2009 13:12:10 GMT -5
i'm willing to bet anyone a beer that things get changed a year from now (or less).
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Guilds
Jan 14, 2009 14:25:37 GMT -5
Post by DM Sir Carnifex on Jan 14, 2009 14:25:37 GMT -5
As Jlf2n said, having different toons in different guilds is perfectly acceptable. That's the way we've always done it here since I can remember.
There have been reasonable arguments. Either you overlooked them or you misunderstood them.
To reiterate what was said before, most of the guilds here are active ONLY because we permit a player to have PCs in different guilds. If this were not possible, the Flaming Fist would be near dead with maybe one person doing patrols for the whole server, the Weavemasters would have a couple players, The thieves guild wouldn't have taken off like it did, the druids would have to be content with one of them standing on the road holding a sign "don't destroy the trees", and the Merchants' League would have to be renamed as The Merchant.
You may be worried about meta-gaming, but if you'd forget about it for a time, you may find you have more fun on the server instead of looking over your shoulder for the would-be meta-gamer and all the loopholes that are open.
The choice is either dead guilds (bad for RP) or one more measure taken to reduce meta-gaming (which will always exist).
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Guilds
Jan 14, 2009 14:29:11 GMT -5
Post by DM Cephas on Jan 14, 2009 14:29:11 GMT -5
I personally have no problem with people being in multiple guilds. Now maybe some of the more secret guilds would prefer only 1 membership but if you have a cleric who wants to join a church and a wizard who wants to join the Weave Masters where is the harm in that? When you start making rules like this your taking it to seriously. Relax and have fun. I don't understand why so many people have to hinge their good time on what someone else is doing. ^^ He has spoken!! Anything else is irrelevant I think the direction of the server is good. Its considerd RP lite so theres no reason to enforce such strict regulations. Just a minor point... the server is RP-"medium". Hopefully, we won't find the type of people that azdling talked about or it doesn't become a big issue. As a recommendation though to players... please don't join more than one secret guild. Things can get especially messy.
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Guilds
Jan 14, 2009 14:29:25 GMT -5
Post by Zealote on Jan 14, 2009 14:29:25 GMT -5
i'm willing to bet anyone a beer that things get changed a year from now (or less). Then all I need is a couple more months to see your prophecy come true. Lets wait then.
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Guilds
Jan 14, 2009 14:45:25 GMT -5
Post by adzling on Jan 14, 2009 14:45:25 GMT -5
fair enough zealote, can we make a bet on a beer then? the issue i see is that with more people on the server EVEN MORE people will be affected by any anti-metagaming measures you decide to institute and even more people will be angry and upset. I am all for making the hard choices early on.
and in response to carn: I believe that as the playerbase increases the "not enough members for the guilds" problem will solve itself as long a reasonable exclusions are made (see church recommendation).
Absent that issue there have only been arguments along the lines of "i want it so there" or "oh noos my fun will be ruined" to which i say perhaps they should try having only one toon in guild/s and enjoying the mystery and suspense it brings. Those are not rational arguments they are subjective views.
I tend to be a hope for the best but prepare for the worst person as opposed to a "give me everything and don't impose any rules on me" person.
let's wait and see then eh?
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