PLEASE DONT USE SoZ content yet

[DEV Jlf2n]

Lots of people are choosing new classes and feats. If you do there is a good chance your toon won't be playable and you'll have to wait a while to get it fixed. The list of folks who need fixing is already quite long.

[emolas]

New feats:

Daylight Adaptation
Divine Vengeance
Empower Turning
Improved Turning
Indomitable Soul
Leadership
Steadfast Determination


New background "feats"

Appraiser
Confidant
Foreigner
Savvy
Survivor
Talent
Veteran Constitution


Heritage feats:

Fey Heritage
Fiendish Heritage

There are a bunch more down the fey/fiend heritage path but they all have those for prereq so they won't be available.


SoZ spells (I don't know if these are OK to use):

Bladeweave
Conviction
Nightshield
Animalistic Power
Living Undeath
Castigate
Stabilize
Blood to Water
Healing Sting
Reduce Animal
Snake’s Swiftness
Snake’s Swiftness, Mass
Dehydrate
Arc of Lightning
Blade of Fire
Orb of Acid (cold/electricity/fire/sound), Lesser
Reduce Person
Orb of Acid (cold/electricity/fire/sound)
Reduce Person, Greater

[mingming]

Any idea when the SoZ content will be available?

[Repuls]

This weekend with 7.2? *prays*

[caveman282]

I hope not... There are still players who cant get the expansion, If the content comes available I hope that you can still play without it. I don't really want the expansion. I have no intention of playing the campagne or even playing any of the classes. I know there are others that feel different and thats fine. I just hope that once the content comes available that we aren't REQUIRED to have it installed.

[adzling]

i have heard from other pw's that you can play on a server with soz content installed you just will not see any soz monsters and instead will need to use your keyboard to target next enemy!

but i'm all for soz to be in as soon as possible.

there's some really good stuff in there.

although i have to say dinosaur companions MUST be restricted as they are WAAAY over powerful.

[luna]

Jan 8, 2009 10:18:08 GMT -5 adzling said:

i have heard from other pw's that you can play on a server with soz content installed you just will not see any soz monsters and instead will need to use your keyboard to target next enemy!

but i'm all for soz to be in as soon as possible.

there's some really good stuff in there.

although i have to say dinosaur companions MUST be restricted as they are WAAAY over powerful.

Do you know of any bigger servers running SoZ yet?

I'm just curious.. most I see said they have no plans of moving to SoZ.

[adzling]

tfr seems to be firming up plans on implementing SoZ content.

you do have to be careful though there are some things in there that are game breaking for a PW imho *cough* immunity:rogues & crits for seconds level clerics *cough* overpowered dinosaur companion for druids *cough*

[mingming]

I don't find that spell over balancing, nor the companion either. Both are perfectly balanced and appropriate in the context of the game and from their PNP origins. I wish you people would stop your holier than thou judging, and leave it to the builders, rather than bitching about it in the hopes that enough volume will sway your cause.

[adzling]

ok then, i have a challenge for you mingming.

if soz content gets implements AS IS i would like to make a bet of 10,000 gold that EVERY druid who can immediately takes a dinosaur companion and EVERY cleric of high enough level goes around with Immunity: rogues & crits on permanently.

Will you take my bet?

[mingming]

What would that accomplish? Your contention is that the new material is unbalanced, not that it is not attractive. I counter that none of the material really disrupts gameplay by virtue of its existing. Rather, I direct you to look at the actual effect of the items in question.

One provides immunity to critical hits at the cost of Charisma, a needed stat for a cleric's Turn Undead and Divine Feats, and is also redundantly replicated with considerably more benefits and similarly long duration by the Iron Body/Stone body spells. Clerics will have the ability to become Immune to Crits regardless of your criticisms of this particular spell, and so your argument becomes obvious a knee-jerk reaction akin to short-sighted protectionism and reluctance to adapt to change and to evolve character growth and concept.

In regards to the Dinosaur Companion feat, it is no more or less unbalanced than any other PNP feat that upgrades a companion, and in fact, by the standards of most NWN2 creatures is still fairly tame, bringing up a feature to comparable power with the likely foes its character will face, and at the cost of a feat I might add. I can take a screenshot of the statistics and compare them with those in the NWN2 Wiki of the alternative companions, and I think you will find that while its strength is staying power through HP, it in fact lacks the many immunities of other long-term planar allies or undead such as the Blackguard's Skeletal Warrior.

As a long-term DM, player, and having experience in running canon campaigns and module/scenario writing for the RPGA (which is notoriously conservative in its ruleset btw), I observe that a great many people enjoy being headless chickens who panic whenever something new is introduced, decrying such material as "unbalanced" or "broken" when all too often a careful examination of the mechanics and implementation will reveal that they simply repackaged and replicate an already existing feature.

Use some common sense and rationality when you speak of such matters. Think. Observe. Be critical in your examination of an argument and do not fall prey to emotive and bandwagon appeals. Neither of these two items will disrupt the game, particularly given the level of power embedded in already existing features. Your efforts would be better directed at examining the contending attitudes of concept over play, and creative freedom versus player responsibility. Already, the degree of hostility and demand for "greater control" in the server has created a very negative and unwelcoming environment, what with people clamoring for a magic bullet to fix all their problems, rather than doing something about it themselves by leading through example. If you dislike something, then don't use it. Show people how it's possible to play without whatever it is that you feel is "cheesy". But don't take it upon yourself to tell other people how they should create characters, roleplay, or otherwise enjoy their leisure and hobby experience. It is the tyranny of the mob that likes to drag others down to the same level of misery for all to share. Just because you are unhappy does not give you the right to make others unhappy too.

[adzling]

hey mingming!

if you would like to quote experience (har!) how about I have been playind dnd since 1979 AND have played on a PW with almost no restrictions for a year that suffered terribly from it.
I applaude the dev/dms attempts to mitigate cheese on this server.

now as far as the dino companion goes the only other thing i will say on it is as a companion it is pure cheese from my experience. I played SoZ with it and so my experience is first hand.

now, as far as cleric buffs go i will state quite succinctly why you are wrong vis a vis stone body.
Chiefly stone body has other drawbacks (-dex, -movement) that the 2nd level clerical spell in question does not have.
+ it means that if confers the most powerful ability of stone body (immunity crits) on clerics 8 levels lowers than they otherwise could get it at.
AND what's more because it is a second level spell when you get high enough level you can slot a bunch of them and cast them on your whole party.
AND what's more who cares about turn undead? no on ever uses it as it's implementation is borked <have you tried turning undead at a similar level to yourself or above?> and you would lose xp you would get from killing them.
AND if you are cleric who doesn't use CHA (they are out there) then who cares about losing some CHA.

So my point is carefully considered and rationally thought out not just some noob mouthing off.

I really do care about cutting down on the cheese and these two items really lay it on thick IMHO.

However this cheese sauce is still not as thick as the stone body exploit most clerics on PW seem to be built for now. Or at least most clerics on my old PW.

the offer for that bet still stands mingming.

[mingming]

Well, then maybe you should play somewhere else, since obviously you are unhappy with the "cheese factor" here. And your offer is still, as I maintained, tangential to your assertion. Please learn to argue and debate effectively before engaging me further, as I will simply ignore you otherwise.

[DM Sir Carnifex]

Simply put, overpowered or not, the dinosaur has no proper place on the server. We aren't down in the jungles yet.

But this thread has degenerated into yet another bout of back-and-forth bickering.

It's pointless to argue about all the content of SoZ at the time anyway.

[adzling]

mingming you are a laugh!

i never stated i was unhappy with the cheese factor here, i actually applauded the devs for making the hard choice regarding RDD, no persistent spell for clerics, no 1 level dip in SD etc etc.

You conveniently ignore my statement regarding the difference between stone body and a level 2 cleric spell that confers the most important benefit of stone body at much lower spell level and instead you fall back on a personal attack as you did in your first statement.

I will offer you another reason to consider this second level clerical spell overpowered (which you will also no doubt ignore as you did my previous assertions as you have basically no leg to stand on from a logical point of view) and that is:

imagine if you will every second level player on the server within range of a cleric possessing immunity:rogues & crits which they would not otherwise have access to were it not for this borked spell?

sound like cheese?

sure sounds like it to me.

Furthermore imagine if you will a 9th level cleric persisting said second level spell and thereby being immune to rogues & crits FOREVER.

Sounds like cheese yet? Oh wait the devs nerfed persistant spells for clerics (halleulah!)

Ok then how about this: imagine a second level spell that confers immunity:rogues and immunity crits to everyone within range of a cleric AND that cannot be dispelled with breach, great breach, dispel magic or greater dispel magic.

Now does that sound like cheese?

Sure does to me ;-)

now, onto the dino companion.
Sir carnifex is right, dino companions have no place on the sword coast (this ain't chult baby) and should not be allowed except with a dm permission.

Now onto my point re: stone body exploit.

Do you know what i am talking about?
I will presume you do not otherwise you would understand that the stone body exploit is one of the worst that bugsidian introduced into the game from a PvP perspective or PW perspective....well there's the druid wearing metal full-plate which is about as bad i guess.

So unless you are willing to debate the merits of your argument without resorting to baseless personal attacks you should hold fire on your responses.