|
|
Post by DM Cephas on Oct 7, 2008 22:46:45 GMT -5
On Rest: The topic of increasing rest rates has been brought up before, but I think it would overstep the RP-Lite boundry. I wouldnt be opposed to the idea IF things were more like PnP. Yeah its harder to play a mage, but its wayyy more fun to do it in PnP. In NWN without crafting and ample supplies for mages to make things or write scrolls or researching spells. What exactly does RP-lite mean? I ask because I think increasing rest time is probably less a "RP-lite" issue but more of a game balance issue. One-on-one, a mage will own any fighter, but in longer games, fighters don't lose their "power" since it doesn't fade. As for xp penalties for multi-classing, it just needs to be considered that you may effectively void the concept of favored classes (and the benefit of being a human or half-elf). I personally think that "pure" classes should be rewarded (whether it be through extra xp or multi-classed be penalized) but not at the expense of breaking the system. (maybe 5% xp penalty since multiclass already gives 10% penalty if not even in levels) Just my thoughts. |
|
atlas
Active Member
Posts: 177
|
Post by atlas on Oct 8, 2008 6:20:55 GMT -5
Ive never played Dnd, only video games based on it, but from what ive read over the years, saying its ok to make a class like a spellcaster more powerful than a fighter so long as theres a chance to catch him with his pants down is stupid. In this game spellcasters are always going to have their spells on when the crap hits the fan and people start to PVP, its just too easy to predict what the other guy is going to do, especially if he's playing a Fighter type because his options are so limited. If you take into account the novels or the Dnd games, Wizards and the like are supposed to be so restricted in their power that only someone whose crazy about magic would ever want to be one. Lets go over the facts of real Dnd Wizards.
They have to re read their spellbook every day to get their spells back. Every single day they have to spend hours reading the same book or books over and over for their entire career or until they quit.
Most Wizards are killed off at the beginning of their career because they have to go out into the insanely dangerous world and find more powerful spellbooks from cursed ruins and such. Spellbooks arent just left laying around. In the beginning they only have a few paltry spells and so they have to team up with the burly warrior to simply survive in the wild. Due to their insane requirement in the devotion to magical study they literally have no skills in survival or anything else except theology or philosophy maybe. There are a few lucky ones like Elves, that are born into priviledged circumstances and get apprenticed to the big dog Wizard in town whether they're qualified or not.
Due to game mechanics - You kill some wolves, get exp and level up then sell the loot to buy better equipment, it's impossible to play a real Dnd Wizard.
I'm not saying people should have to go through all of this if they want to play a spellcaster, i'm just saying its not real dnd or a novel and like it or not its more like World Of Warcraft than either. PVP and killing monsters and how capable your character is at these things plays a huge role. Gary Gygax never intended people to use their characters to fight one another, they were supposed to always work together, yet lo and behold today we have a video game based on dnd where one of the functions is to go head to head with other people.
In the beginning a Cleric was never supposed to be able to beat a Fighter type in melee combat period. Clerics are not supposed to be the strongarm of their diety, they're the preachers, the converters and the negotiators. Their power is supposed to be primarily support. This is how it was in the beginning however over the years the people that make this stuff up kept adding new classes, spells, etc without enough thought into whether they would unbalance the game. When it comes down to it, dnd is just a complicated version of Rock, Paper, Scissors. You're not supposed to be able to be the rock and the paper, only one. You should really ask yourself if the class or combination you play really wasnt all poweful when it counts, would you still be playing it? Over the six or so years ive been playing these games ive seen too many trends where the majority picks the best option (usually a spellcaster) not because it suits their character or even because they like that class for what it represents. Most of the time they pick that class for power, pure and simple. Merely one of the reasons why saying its ok for the game to not be balanced as much as we can make it does not suffice. What if you're playing football and the other team is favoured by the umpire or the rules give the other team an unfair advantage? *cough* World Cup Soccor umpires *cough* The same logic applies here. At the end of the day this is a game just like any other.
I am not about nerfing the overpowered classes because that would just destroy them and make them boring. What i am about is building the weaker ones up to match the strong in terms of what they are supposed to do and their relevance.
Lastly proper equipment does balance the scales quite a bit, at least when it comes to fighting monsters. And the server ad at Nwvault said this place has a medium magic level last time i checked, not a low magic level. Medium is up to +5, low is up to +3 and high is +6 onwards, at least thats my take on it. I take it they are slowly introducing proper gear over time while this is still beta.
|
|
davidb
Senior Member
Posts: 300
|
Post by davidb on Oct 8, 2008 6:36:00 GMT -5
I mostly agree with you, atlas. A cleric overpowers in melee a figther nowadays thanks to its spells, I can tell you that.
So yes, I think non-casters need a little help here with equipment, but I don't think +5 is medium level. It's very good equipment for a lvl 20 char, and that level is not easy to surpass with the current zones. So I agree with the current policy about items, +2 tops, if you want better you need to quest it, craft it, or earn in event. But non-casters should benefit from a wider selection of items, for sure.
|
|
|
|
Post by DEV Akavit on Oct 9, 2008 20:05:52 GMT -5
As usual, I am not in favor of imposing too many rules or penalties upon character classes. I much prefer dealing with some imbalance between casters and non-casters rather than trying to build my characters around onerous restrictions or xp penalties.
Resting during events without DM permission is already prohibited. Unfortunately, many people ignore this. I see spellcasters resting and rebuffing at the weirdest moments. If this rule were better followed, then the events at any rate would be better balanced.
One of the little things in the Baldur's Gate game that was so much fun was the difficulty in fighting to the end of a deep dungeon. Resting was not restricted but ambushes often interrupted the session and were often very dangerous to a party with depleted strength. Perhaps there should be a possibility of ambush if people choose to rest in danger zones? I do not know if this is possible but MotB certainly has incorporated them.
|
|
|
|
Post by DM Cephas on Oct 10, 2008 12:58:54 GMT -5
Not sure if this fits in this thread, but I'd make a rod of least spell mantle available for purchase. I play a wizard right now and I have quite a few ways of killing someone with a few spells and even a paladin's uber saving throw can't resist it. Drow? I just need one extra spell. Anyway, the rod gives someone the ability to stop one or two spells before it needs to re-used (which takes an action and the duration on it is lousy) so it is by no means a mage-pwn'er tactic either. It will just make the battle versus high level mages more interesting as opposed to be being one-sided.
|
|
|
|
Post by wildelf on Oct 10, 2008 13:21:02 GMT -5
Rods of Resurrection (and scrolls) would be nice too. It sucks to always lose 5% xp upon death even with party members around that could help if they had a raise spell.
|
|
davidb
Senior Member
Posts: 300
|
Post by davidb on Oct 10, 2008 20:31:42 GMT -5
widelf, look for a priest to raise you *wink* *wink*  |
|
|
|
Post by Iceshard on Oct 10, 2008 21:22:23 GMT -5
I will prob add in a 1 time use item for Ressurection (more or less just Raise Dead), but these items will be expensive, to much for a low level to buy. The general cost for something like this on most RP servers is 600-800 gold. I will lean more towards the low end of that scale. Still itll be enough to pick and choose whom to bring back and who lays to rot.
-Ice
|
|
|
|
Post by blametherogue on Oct 11, 2008 7:50:18 GMT -5
i agree. if you spend 600 gold on a raise dead, you won't use it on just anyone. good rp. know who your friends are |
|
|
|
Post by DM blessedone on Oct 11, 2008 9:36:43 GMT -5
Well, if you are on that Tradeway and fall victim to some stupid Gnoll, Ogre or other beasty and Aiden finds ya....it is in his heart to aid that poor soul and raise him up...I have done it many, many, well....many times and will continue to do this. Well, that is of course you are not a Drow, then he will likely drag ya back to the city to insure that no one else raises you back up!  |
|
davidb
Senior Member
Posts: 300
|
Post by davidb on Oct 13, 2008 2:40:10 GMT -5
I will prob add in a 1 time use item for Ressurection (more or less just Raise Dead), but these items will be expensive, to much for a low level to buy. The general cost for something like this on most RP servers is 600-800 gold. I will lean more towards the low end of that scale. Still itll be enough to pick and choose whom to bring back and who lays to rot. -Ice One of the reasons I made a cleric is to raise people in my groups, so if you ask me, I wouldn't like to see one of our defining features turned into a merchant item worth 600gp... Even I would let the slot free and purchase them  |
|
|
|
Post by Zealote on Oct 13, 2008 4:22:24 GMT -5
Ok guys i didnt want to post this but this thread is about balance so i will. I am not a guy that likes to grind more than 30 min a day. Unless i am in a party to RP, or at least to talk ooc, just to keep my mind alive. Most of you that know me, have seen my two main characters, Ujio and Valek. Valek is a classic build, melee, with some good stats, not too high, not too low. Classic paladin. And he is a weak bastard. Ujio was my second character, a little stronger, semi PB. But i just build him to RP flirt as some many know already. They are both melee with crappy spells. Ujio can cast some lvl 1 and Valek can use the ridiculous paladin's spells. They took very long to lvl up, specially Valek, who i have since beta 1. Now i have a new one, that i've made to test the balance between melee and spellcasters. After a few lvls, i have decided to try a minor spell combo. He is not a powerbuild, far from it. Just a classic combination, simple and makes perfect sense (i wont say it though). Once o got lvl 15, i went to the mannor to check what i thought could work. And since my lvl 21 paladin cant solo vs lvl 15 skellies, i thought i would be beaten like a rabbid dog. But in 20 minutes, i got out of the mannor at lvl 16. So a lvl 15 spellcaster can solo where a paladin lvl 21 with good equip cannot. Not even in a party, Valek can go inside the mannor, unless in the party there is a powerfull spellcaster to buff him. Dont take me wrong, im not telling that Valek should be able to solo vs 4-5 skellies lvl 15. But a lvl 15 spellcaster shouldnt either. I actually like that Valek cant go in there alone, its bad RP, since we have like 20 online all the time. But the way those mobs are, in the future, we will have a population of buffers. Will be like of the 20 players online, 4 will be pure melee. And they wont be able to pass lvl 15, and the spellcasters will be all lvl 30. As i have said it before, something must prevent the spellcasters from being so OVERPOWERED all the time. When i said to increase the time between rest to 8 hours, you missunderstood me Ice. The issue brought before was related to time passage IG, and that cant be changed, cause would bring inumerous implications, like duration of spells and also time between rests. But currently hour time is 2 hours. Its just a matter of changing that to 8 and not mess with the time passage IG. Just the time between rests. Forgive me if i sound harsh, but i like to RP, and its ridiculous to see people made of stone and glowing all the time when you walk by the tradeway. I try to keep unbuffed as much as i can, and just buff when the battle starts. Ask Josh. He killed me with his daily regular spawn. By mistake of course. I was lvl 14 and a orc killed me cause i was unbuffed walking by the Lions Way. but if i want to, i can go with my lvl 16 and kill Frost Giants. Its totally ridiculous. I mean, of course a mage with all his spells, can take a powerfull enemy down. But ONE ENEMY. IG, i can kill one Giant with all my spells, rest, kill another with all my spells again, rest again and keep this up untill lvl 30. If we all want to keep people mid lvl to make the game more funny and entertaning, this is the easiest way to do it. Just increase the time between rests. Right now, the setting can keep a melee classic mid lvl, but also can make a mage go Elminster in a week. All you need is a party untill lvl 12 or something. Then is all roses. Melee fighters cant pass the Treants. After that its all mage, or fighters buffed by mages/clerics. But a mage doesnt need a fighter once he is past lvl 15. But a fighter will definetely need a mage/cleric after he is lvl 15. Please, i am not in favor of soloing, not at all. But i need to say that its a possibility for a great deal of players, and favor the mid lvl spellcasters greatly. The increase of the time between rests is the only reasonable alternative i can see. Also is the PnP alternative to make them less overpowering. Please im sorry if my post offend anyone, it is not my intent. Im just frustrated by the fact that i can get several lvls in a day, and im a RPer. If i was a grinder, i could be lvl 30 with my character and be the king of PvP.  I dont want to see that happening with another player. Thanks Zeal |
|
davidb
Senior Member
Posts: 300
|
Post by davidb on Oct 13, 2008 9:42:31 GMT -5
Zeal couldn't be more right.
My 2c: Make dungeons no-rest, except in a few safe spots. Double rest time in the wild (but don't make failed attempt count). This alone would bring tons of balance between melee and casters. Equipment selection would help too, but that is less important.
Something is wrong when you can go from 15 to 16 in 20 minutes... I for one prefer level progression to be sloooow, but slow thanks to the environment difficulty, not slow because I am not trying to level.
On a separated thread, Josh asked if the ceiling should be at 15, 20 or 30 in a poll. I would go for 15 or 20, but then, better make leveling much slower.
|
|
|
|
Post by guildmaster on Oct 13, 2008 11:58:32 GMT -5
As a mage, I brought up Zeal's point independently as well. I think rest time needed should be increased (while a fixing it so that canceled rest does not start the timer.) It's not a question of RP but about class balance. Here's another way to achieve class "balance"....
Starting combining melee mobs with spellcasters that cast dispel or spell breach (version of each will depend on mob CR)! DOH!!!!!
|
|
|
|
Post by DM haunted on Oct 13, 2008 21:01:44 GMT -5
I totally agree a 100% with Zeal on this matter.And you as well Weave.
There are many ways this can be done.The resting idea,weave's idea, and just making enemies more stronger in general.In reality,that is Faerunian reality,most mobs are defeated by partied adventurers or companions.Hells,lets make wolves have to be killed by at least a party of two or well thought out strategy of a solo artist.Maybe I am going over board with the wolves,but the point is,making things more party oriented,reduces the amount of solo grinding,increases the amount of RP,and also will give players a more sense of bonding or union.
Also the 8 hour resting idea is great,kudos for that one.And adding more spellcasters within mobs and some that have the ability to cast dispell or breach would be cool as well.Make those spellcasters rely on those fighters a little more.
|
|
