davidb
Senior Member
Posts: 300
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Post by davidb on Oct 7, 2008 4:23:04 GMT -5
As this PW is in the final stages of beta, I think it would be interesting to discuss some tweaks to help some of the classes...
And I am not talking about PvP combat balance, that is impossible. I talk about balance in terms of utility in a group. This will be even more important if the staff is planning to add raid-like content.
Many of you will say why bother, all I want is roleplay. Yet that has nothing to do, you can roleplay the same *and* be more useful to a group.
So far, the plan is to punish multiclasses. I am not against it, but multiclassing is the smallest of balance problems... a lvl 10 wizard or cleric is incredibly more powerful and versatile than a Barbarian, for example. So punishing multiclasses won't help that.
My idea, as a complementary addition to the penalties for multiclassing is:
a) XP bonus for *pure* Rogue, Barbarian, Monk and Figther. Around 5%-20%.
b) Some of the items should be for these classes only. Example, GreatAxe +2 could require Bar lvl 7. Some nifty saves items for them could be nice too. These classes rely much more in equipment than the others, so they should get a little more options.
c) Include some dungeons with magic dispelling traps, and decent magic resisting bosses, so pure muscle power is needed. Also more traps, locks and hidden doors, but I am sure this is already planned.
Maybe resting should be somewhat restricted too, as a spellcaster that can replenish all his arsenal every five minutes is incredibly more effective.
Oh, and remove RDD and other prestige classes that really add nothing in terms of RP and are completely overpowered.
What do you think?
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lorgin2003
Senior Member
Dyn-o-miiiiite!!!
Posts: 373
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Post by lorgin2003 on Oct 7, 2008 7:33:55 GMT -5
rogues need help. there isn't much for them, equipment wise. there's some, but it isn't all that useful past 10th level. i haven't found a single rapier or kukri with any extra damage on it. scrolls can help, but they cost some hefty coin. especially if you need to compensate for a 19 AC at 15th level. it requires a significant investment(around 500 for a single set of standard buffs) in order to go hunt for gold, and only being able to carry a few minotaur horns back makes it even harder.
perhaps gear should be given as rewards in DM events? i'd rather have something useful, like a decent suit of armor than a few hundred xp or gp. they're just drops in the bucket once you hit higher levels, but equipment is always useful.
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Post by astralwyvern on Oct 7, 2008 10:13:01 GMT -5
So far, the plan is to punish multiclasses. I am not against it, but multiclassing is the smallest of balance problems... a lvl 10 wizard or cleric is incredibly more powerful and versatile than a Barbarian, for example. So punishing multiclasses won't help that. My idea, as a complementary addition to the penalties for multiclassing is: a) XP bonus for *pure* Rogue, Barbarian, Monk and Figther. Around 5%-20%. b) Some of the items should be for these classes only. Example, GreatAxe +2 could require Bar lvl 7. Some nifty saves items for them could be nice too. These classes rely much more in equipment than the others, so they should get a little more options. c) Include some dungeons with magic dispelling traps, and decent magic resisting bosses, so pure muscle power is needed. Also more traps, locks and hidden doors, but I am sure this is already planned. Maybe resting should be somewhat restricted too, as a spellcaster that can replenish all his arsenal every five minutes is incredibly more effective. Oh, and remove RDD and other prestige classes that really add nothing in terms of RP and are completely overpowered. What do you think? FACT: Positive reinforcement is often a more powerful motivator than punishment. I agree with A, But not B in the same way, & C. Multiclassing is a part of the NWN2 system and most people expect to utilize it. Unfortunately, balance is not something that comes with the package; this is D&D. Ming made good mention about this issue a while back. IMO a melee PC needs better equipment to survive things like: Skeletons, Giants, Frost Giants, Winter wolves, and other spawns that DMs can throw at them. @ level 20 they have little chance of taking these foes, that is, unless they have been blessed by a barrage of cleric extend/persistent spells. A level 15 spell caster can blast those foes away with out too much effort. This is the imbalance we have inherited from the system of D&D, and it would take a super genius to make the scales even without ruining peoples fun. Oh, I spitefully disagree with removing the prestige classes on the grounds of their lack of RP use. It is a shame that most people cannot take a gem prestige class without abusing it. When this happens I will be walking out the back door.
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Post by Iceshard on Oct 7, 2008 10:15:21 GMT -5
I will be starting on the Class Specific gear soon enough. The first classes to catch my attention will be Rogues, and Wizards. Im not to concerned with the ground pounders right now as their options are WIDE open right now in terms of stuff they can pick up.
-Ice
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Post by DM haunted on Oct 7, 2008 10:19:09 GMT -5
I think RDD should not be removed or any other prestige classes. They need to be closed and rewarded for correct and knowledgeable rp/lore of the class. And only the best can get RDD,mainly because of the rarity of the class.It would take more than just playing the game to get it.Research it people ,learn what it is to be a RDD.
Now , far as doing away with a prestige class , I can only see that happen to a NWN. As I have mentioned before, requirements should be met for these more rare and powerful PRC's Certain Prc's are rare and powerful for a reason.Some are for the favored and chosen of deities,such as Stormlord.Stormlord is bestowed on the most fanatical and devout of Talos's servants.If you dont worship him,you dont get it,if you do worship him and cant prove your devotion,you still dont get it.Which goes back to knowing your lore and rp for certain classes. Same with a Red Wizard..Only Thayan born humans can be one and you must know your stuff to act out and rp one properly.
There is only one base class that I think should be treated the same as well ,Warlock. Warlocks are rare , due to dark pacts made with demons/devils and some being of the same blood,not as much as a tiefling,but some.The rp has to be there for this as well.Everyone and their grandma cant be this class,its too rare.
There are a few others,but that is just common sense when you think on it. I know my lore,an extensive amount of it,sadly,lol.So I speak from experience and what I know. So hopefully,it can be used here,cuz I dont use it anywhere else.
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Post by CartMid on Oct 7, 2008 10:42:59 GMT -5
So far, the plan is to punish multiclasses. I am not against it, but multiclassing is the smallest of balance problems... a lvl 10 wizard or cleric is incredibly more powerful and versatile than a Barbarian, for example. So punishing multiclasses won't help that. My idea, as a complementary addition to the penalties for multiclassing is: a) XP bonus for *pure* Rogue, Barbarian, Monk and Figther. Around 5%-20%. b) Some of the items should be for these classes only. Example, GreatAxe +2 could require Bar lvl 7. Some nifty saves items for them could be nice too. These classes rely much more in equipment than the others, so they should get a little more options. c) Include some dungeons with magic dispelling traps, and decent magic resisting bosses, so pure muscle power is needed. Also more traps, locks and hidden doors, but I am sure this is already planned. Maybe resting should be somewhat restricted too, as a spellcaster that can replenish all his arsenal every five minutes is incredibly more effective. Oh, and remove RDD and other prestige classes that really add nothing in terms of RP and are completely overpowered. What do you think? FACT: Positive reinforcement is often a more powerful motivator than punishment. I agree with A, But not B in the same way, & C. Multiclassing is a part of the NWN2 system and most people expect to utilize it. Unfortunately, balance is not something that comes with the package; this is D&D. Ming made good mention about this issue a while back. IMO a melee PC needs better equipment to survive things like: Skeletons, Giants, Frost Giants, Winter wolves, and other spawns that DMs can throw at them. @ level 20 they have little chance of taking these foes, that is, unless they have been blessed by a barrage of cleric extend/persistent spells. A level 15 spell caster can blast those foes away with out too much effort. This is the imbalance we have inherited from the system of D&D, and it would take a super genius to make the scales even without ruining peoples fun. Oh, I spitefully disagree with removing the prestige classes on the grounds of their lack of RP use. It is a shame that most people cannot take a gem prestige class without abusing it. When this happens I will be walking out the back door. I will second that. Melee characters need better equipment to balance things out, but this is a low magic server and I must agree also that it would be rather strange if every lvl 5 PC has a weapon with elemental damage. And I think it would be wise to remove the weapons with elemental damage from the shops as well, for it is quite unfair that some kinds of weapons come with elemental damage and others do not. Maybe arrows and bolts could come with fire damage as long as it do not takes a brilliant arcane caster to lighten up an arrow, but what about a greataxe with acid damage? Perhaps a good thing to do, in RP terms as well, would be rewarding these kind of weapons in major DM events and restrict it's usage for lvl 15 or 20, whatever...
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lorgin2003
Senior Member
Dyn-o-miiiiite!!!
Posts: 373
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Post by lorgin2003 on Oct 7, 2008 13:57:56 GMT -5
Melee characters need better equipment to balance things out, but this is a low magic server and I must agree also that it would be rather strange if every lvl 5 PC has a weapon with elemental damage. And I think it would be wise to remove the weapons with elemental damage from the shops as well, for it is quite unfair that some kinds of weapons come with elemental damage and others do not. Maybe arrows and bolts could come with fire damage as long as it do not takes a brilliant arcane caster to lighten up an arrow, but what about a greataxe with acid damage? Perhaps a good thing to do, in RP terms as well, would be rewarding these kind of weapons in major DM events and restrict it's usage for lvl 15 or 20, whatever... it's a lot easier to add to what's there than to start taking things away and adding new restrictions. they're gently easing the magic in, instead of either overflowing it or rewriting the whole system so that +2 is the best there ever will be. i've begun copying down the magic item tables from the 3.5 Dungeon Master's Guide to here. it'll break the current low magic brainwashing that allowing anything above +2 automatically leads to a +18 sword with 12 different damage types. D&D don't work that way. with the proper magic level, it balances itself rather well. the DMs just have to hand out magic items responsibly, and everything will be groovy.
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Post by madcomposer on Oct 7, 2008 14:22:43 GMT -5
First of all, I think it's a terrible idea to limit people's choices as far as RP is concerned. The RDD PrC could be great for RP IF it were played correctly. What could be done is that a special feat could be rewarded (as in the NWN2 OC) by the DM's to make a PrC available. This could be done with the following classes: Red Dragon Disciple Shadowdancer Harper Agent Shadow Thief Stormlord Arcane Scholar of Candlekeep Red Wizard of Thay Most of the above are either specialty societies where at the very least an application for membership would be needed (if not an initiation), or a class which requires some act of devotion to realistically occur to a character. Notice also that 60% of pb's use at least one of the above. Second, I would also recommend just removing the Strength bonus RDDs get. That alone would wipe out most powerbuilds, while still giving a significant bonus to RDDs. Wings and tails would be cool too.
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Post by CartMid on Oct 7, 2008 14:27:26 GMT -5
it's a lot easier to add to what's there than to start taking things away and adding new restrictions. they're gently easing the magic in, instead of either overflowing it or rewriting the whole system so that +2 is the best there ever will be. i've begun copying down the magic item tables from the 3.5 Dungeon Master's Guide to here. it'll break the current low magic brainwashing that allowing anything above +2 automatically leads to a +18 sword with 12 different damage types. D&D don't work that way. with the proper magic level, it balances itself rather well. the DMs just have to hand out magic items responsibly, and everything will be groovy. The suggestion of taking the magic weapons (the ones with elemental damage) from the shops is merely a way to put things fair. Or it's implemented to all kinds of weapons/armors or to none, because just half of it, you just benefit half of the PCs. I'm not suggesting to cut the magic items from the server (I'm not that bad), I'm just saying that these items should be controlled by the DMs to reward PCs on quests. Three points are crucial in that: 1 - +2 (or even +3) Weapons are more than necessary for Players to lvl up until lvl 15-20. (I lvled up my Ranger with a +1 weapon that was changed to a mithral weapon with no enhancement bonus). 2 - There would be less PCs in the Minotaur Area hunting for gold if they knew that higher damage weapons can be acquired via DM events. 3 - I would not expect to see every adventurer in the sword coast with a glowing weapon in his/her hands. That would be a signal of a greater achievement for something he/she did. Not just something they bought from the back alley shop.
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Post by DM Cephas on Oct 7, 2008 14:56:14 GMT -5
As this PW is in the final stages of beta, I think it would be interesting to discuss some tweaks to help some of the classes... And I am not talking about PvP combat balance, that is impossible. I talk about balance in terms of utility in a group. This will be even more important if the staff is planning to add raid-like content. Many of you will say why bother, all I want is roleplay. Yet that has nothing to do, you can roleplay the same *and* be more useful to a group. So far, the plan is to punish multiclasses. I am not against it, but multiclassing is the smallest of balance problems... a lvl 10 wizard or cleric is incredibly more powerful and versatile than a Barbarian, for example. So punishing multiclasses won't help that. My idea, as a complementary addition to the penalties for multiclassing is: a) XP bonus for *pure* Rogue, Barbarian, Monk and Figther. Around 5%-20%. b) Some of the items should be for these classes only. Example, GreatAxe +2 could require Bar lvl 7. Some nifty saves items for them could be nice too. These classes rely much more in equipment than the others, so they should get a little more options. c) Include some dungeons with magic dispelling traps, and decent magic resisting bosses, so pure muscle power is needed. Also more traps, locks and hidden doors, but I am sure this is already planned. Maybe resting should be somewhat restricted too, as a spellcaster that can replenish all his arsenal every five minutes is incredibly more effective. Oh, and remove RDD and other prestige classes that really add nothing in terms of RP and are completely overpowered. What do you think? My 2 cents. 1) I concur with (A) but would extend it to any pure class build. Mentality is that it's just easier to keep on doing what you already know. Concur with class specific items as well. 2) I would also give XP for skill specific actions. I.e. successful diplomacy rolls with NPCs, disabling a trap, etc. This encourages people to have a more "rounded" player. 3) I agree with (C) as well even though I'm a wizard. I even agree with restricting rest a bit. (the topic was discussed in other threads to include limiting the amount of hp you heal). Let's fix the rest interrupt though. The timer should be reset AFTER a successful rest IMO. 4) I like the idea of special feats for prestige classes. There are enough active DM's to help with this or even maybe automate it as a quest. 5) Keep (future) RDD's out. If they're put back in, make the it RP heavy (under DM) or nerf the STR at the least. 6) Let's keep it magic low to med. Melee characters and frost giants aren't supposed to mix well. Yeah, a high level caster can own them but after those spells are gone, they're just about useless. That's the part of the balance right? Wizards are weak at low level but own at high level? (see point 3 for balance)
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Post by astralwyvern on Oct 7, 2008 15:30:06 GMT -5
I could be mistaken, but I do believe that the majority of high level PCs are casters. 20+ At this point I do not care anymore. But I can assure you that some others likely do. I would assume that some of those that have been around longer than myself (and deserve more do to massive amounts of effort and RP IMO) that do not play pure casters are currently stuck at a specific level. The monsters (ones I mentioned above) that they could fight to get xp are near impossible to them. But a caster could still work out a way to keep getting that xp.
This might make some people want to powerbuild or just go caster as I have mentioned before. If more casters end up taking the place of the majority, this will be in essence a high magic server.
I will do what I can do until I cannot do it anymore; then it will no longer matter. I have had fun in RP. I am tiered of the debate.
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Post by DM haunted on Oct 7, 2008 15:45:48 GMT -5
The only way to make this a true low magic server is to cap it at level 15,re-arrange the amount of xp given in combat per monster,no weapons or armor sold at stores that have over a +1 enhance of anything,unless its over 45k min.and restrict classes and races.
Personally,I dont want to see it that way.This is more of a low-mid magic server and I enjoy it.Lets not chop it all to hells.The reason there is so many casters is because you can go to level 30 here.Meaning you can multi-class with ease.By that,you can actually be a high level caster and a high BAB melee.What ? Wait....is that the best of both worlds?
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Post by Zealote on Oct 7, 2008 16:08:21 GMT -5
As this PW is in the final stages of beta, I think it would be interesting to discuss some tweaks to help some of the classes... And I am not talking about PvP combat balance, that is impossible. I talk about balance in terms of utility in a group. This will be even more important if the staff is planning to add raid-like content. Many of you will say why bother, all I want is roleplay. Yet that has nothing to do, you can roleplay the same *and* be more useful to a group. So far, the plan is to punish multiclasses. I am not against it, but multiclassing is the smallest of balance problems... a lvl 10 wizard or cleric is incredibly more powerful and versatile than a Barbarian, for example. So punishing multiclasses won't help that. My idea, as a complementary addition to the penalties for multiclassing is: a) XP bonus for *pure* Rogue, Barbarian, Monk and Figther. Around 5%-20%. b) Some of the items should be for these classes only. Example, GreatAxe +2 could require Bar lvl 7. Some nifty saves items for them could be nice too. These classes rely much more in equipment than the others, so they should get a little more options. c) Include some dungeons with magic dispelling traps, and decent magic resisting bosses, so pure muscle power is needed. Also more traps, locks and hidden doors, but I am sure this is already planned. Maybe resting should be somewhat restricted too, as a spellcaster that can replenish all his arsenal every five minutes is incredibly more effective. Oh, and remove RDD and other prestige classes that really add nothing in terms of RP and are completely overpowered. What do you think? A) Disagree completely. Period. Instead of bonus we have penalties for multi class as it should be. Peaple shouldnt lvl up faster if pure class, but multi should lvl up slower. B)Agrees, but you gave a bad example. Should be a more powerfull item. Greataxe +2 is not a powerfull item to be restricted. C) Agreed About restrictions. Disagree completely. But as have been put, some classes should be a reward to RPers. About balance: DnD is not a game of balance. Is a game of strategy. A wizard/sorcerer should be extremely more powerfull than a melee character. Period. But the main issue here is that its easy to play a wizard and take advantage of the game mecanics. In PnP, there is no way that a lvl 20 fighter can beat a lvl 20 wizard fully buffed and rested. So it is IG. But you cant rest all the time playing PnP. So it is very hard to play a spellcaster. Right now, we have a time of 2 hours between rests, and it is a boom for spellcasters. The time needs to be set to 8 hours, so some spellcasters wont be permabuffed. And if something happens, they cant replenish the spells right away. The spells are overpowered for a reason. The reason is that should be very difficult for them to use it, since it requires a great deal of peacefull rest to memorize them. But IG that is not what happens. You can rest every two hours and get all the nasty spells back to blast the next high lvl mob into oblivion. If the time netween rests is increased, the balance would still not exist, but the mecanics would be similar to PnP, making more realistic and tru to DnD, where mages are rare and at the sametime powerfull. Right now they are just powerfull and period. A high lvl mage can cast premonition every two hours and go kill giants and skeletons with fire spells and undead to death. After the spells are over, just move outside and rest, to resume the blasting. i believe a slight increase, like 8 hours between rests should overcome that. but my point is DnD isnt a balanced game. Some classes are more powerfull than others. The way they tried to balance it, is using restricions to have them, or making hard to use them. One easy example im using is the time between rests. And i know we need to rest to save, but even if the time between rests has not passed, you get character saved just for trying to rest, and get the message that you need x hours to rest again. Thanks Zeal
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Post by Iceshard on Oct 7, 2008 17:27:46 GMT -5
On Rest: The topic of increasing rest rates has been brought up before, but I think it would overstep the RP-Lite boundry. I wouldnt be opposed to the idea IF things were more like PnP. Yeah its harder to play a mage, but its wayyy more fun to do it in PnP. In NWN without crafting and ample supplies for mages to make things or write scrolls or researching spells.
For Balance Issues:
A) I cant say I agree a lot on this. Barbarians are massive HP tanks who can serve up a blow, monks are some of the most powerful characters in the game (highest saves, immunities, fast, magical hands, ect), Fighters are really the only ones that could take advantage of XP, but their greatest power is their versitility in feats. If they even got a XP bonus, it would have to be 2% or so. Each class has its purpose and we plan on increasing mobs to focus on group play. So pack plenty of supplies, and find a team when you start looking at mid to high range mobs.
B) Class specific items are coming, they will be in the next batch of things that I am working. Primarily Rogue items and maybe wizard stuff. Melee classes right now have the upper hand for being able to use EVERYTHING in the server right now.
C) Dungeons will be tweaked to accomodate primarily rogues, with traps, locked doors, and locked chests. Within those traps there will be all sorts of goodies.. dispells, explosions, spikes, ect.
As far as RDD goes, or some of the other PrC's. RDD has no place in NWN servers. You can fight it all you want, but the +12 Str, 6 Con, and some of the other amazing god mode abilities can make even the most gimped build a powerhouse. Some of the other PrC's you cant get because of the feats required are history based (NWN9, Shadow of Amn) and granting those would make you an illegal character. On the flip side of that, we may add Kedrins PrC's later on to compensate for some of the classes we are taking out or monitoring.
-Ice
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Post by DM haunted on Oct 7, 2008 19:33:42 GMT -5
I do agree with you about the RDD.The OTHERS are prolly safe to stay,IMO.
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