Able Learner

[joleda]

There has been some debate on the boards lately about how to improve some styles of play. It seems every "good" idea people come up with is trumped by UMD. Although, UMD is not broken, the method some characters use to achieve a high UMD score is through Able Learner.

Able Learner is broken. Is there any chance this gets fixed?


nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Able_Learner

Related rules

• Able learner does not change the maximum skill rank which can be taken for a skill which = (Character Level + 3) for class skills and (Character Level + 3) / 2 [rounded down] for cross-class skills.
  
• Able learner does not change whether a skill is a class skill or a cross-class skill.
  
• NWN2 does consider all the character's classes when determining the maximum skill rank for a skill, which means that for multi-classed characters if a skill is a class skill for any of their classes the maximum ranks are calculated as though the skill is a class skill.
  

[eggshen]

I think the 3 level minimum for classes mitigates the Able Learner situation to a large degree, doesn't it? Spacing out your 3 UMD class levels and saving up skill points would still net you a lot of UMD if you really wanted it.

[woodstock]

Follwed ur link but didnt see it-- how is it borked?

[eggshen]

If you have able learner, basically any skill that is a class skill for ONE of your classes is considered a class skill for ALL of your classes.

Thus, you can take rogue at level 1 and take able learner. You can never again level up in rogue, but you can max out all your rogue skills thanks to able learner.

[joleda]

Apr 26, 2009 14:12:05 GMT -5 eggshen said:

I think the 3 level minimum for classes mitigates the Able Learner situation to a large degree, doesn't it?

No.

Apr 26, 2009 14:12:05 GMT -5 eggshen said:

Spacing out your 3 UMD class levels and saving up skill points would still net you a lot of UMD if you really wanted it.

Too easy for Clerics, Sorcerers, Fighters, and any other class that gets only 2 skill points per level to keep UMD high. This bugxploit also allows these characters to have high Tumble.

[woodstock]

I think tumble should only work in lite or no armer

[c2k]

Tumble is effected by Armor Check penalty, it pretty much forces you to wear padded/no armor for full effect.

Able Learner is bugged it appears. I don't know if its planned to be fixed anytime soon.

[eggshen]

Tumble doesn't work the way you seem to think it works c2k. The dodge bonus to AC it provides is based off base ranks. That bit isn't modified by armor check penalties.

I doubt able learner will be fixed. I suspect it's a bit more hard-coded than something like a spell.

@ joleda. Essentially the problem is splashing classes for benefit from Able Learner. There is already a splash-class fix/rule in place here. IMO, that is enough of a balancing factor for Able Learner. The problem isn't able learner, the problem is UMD. But that's a discussion for another time I suppose.

[hnefi]

It's not broken, it works exactly the way it's supposed to work. If you take one level of rogue and not able learner, you can max your rogue skills just as well as with the feat. Able learner only makes it less expensive to do so.

[eggshen]

Hmmmm, I guess I never tried it without Able Learner as the cost is usually so high in terms of skill points. Interesting.

In that case, there is really no fix possible for this. Moving on. . .

[metrognome]

Apr 26, 2009 14:58:01 GMT -5 hnefi said:

It's not broken, it works exactly the way it's supposed to work. If you take one level of rogue and not able learner, you can max your rogue skills just as well as with the feat. Able learner only makes it less expensive to do so.

QFE. He's absolutely right. The way it works is as follows:

NwN2 says that any skills that are a class skill for a class you have can be maxed out. If you put points into them while taking a lvl for another class you will have to put 2 points for 1 cross class style but you CAN max them.

Able learner just makes it cost 1 for 1 like the feat description says.

It's not Able Learner that's the problem here. It's the NwN engine.

[joleda]

Apr 26, 2009 14:58:01 GMT -5 hnefi said:

It's not broken, it works exactly the way it's supposed to work. If you take one level of rogue and not able learner, you can max your rogue skills just as well as with the feat. Able learner only makes it less expensive to do so.

You shouldn't be able to raise your cross-class skills as freely as your class skills regardless on your class distribution.

NWN2 does consider all the character's classes when determining the maximum skill rank for a skill, which means that for multi-classed characters if a skill is a class skill for any of their classes the maximum ranks are calculated as though the skill is a class skill.

NWN has broken which class skills are considered cross-class skills during the level up process.

Consider this process:

Level 1: Rogue(1) put 4 points in Tumble
Level 2: Fighter(1) should not be able to raise Tumble because it is a cross-class skill for Fighter
Level 3: Fighter(2) should not be able to raise Tumble because it is a cross-class skill for Fighter
Level 4: Fighter(3) should not be able to raise Tumble because it is a cross-class skill for Fighter
Level 5: Fighter(4) should not be able to raise Tumble because it is a cross-class skill for Fighter
Level 6: Fighter(5) should not be able to raise Tumble because it is a cross-class skill for Fighter
Level 7: Fighter(6) able to raise Tumble to 5

In order to raise Tumble to 5 you to solve the equation (Character Level + 3) / 2 [rounded down]
5=(Character Level + 3)/2 ==> Character Level = 7


[edit] it is the nwn engine that is broken *sigh*

[c2k]

Apr 26, 2009 15:03:58 GMT -5 metrognome said:

Apr 26, 2009 14:58:01 GMT -5 hnefi said:

It's not broken, it works exactly the way it's supposed to work. If you take one level of rogue and not able learner, you can max your rogue skills just as well as with the feat. Able learner only makes it less expensive to do so.

QFE. He's absolutely right. The way it works is as follows:

NwN2 says that any skills that are a class skill for a class you have can be maxed out. If you put points into them while taking a lvl for another class you will have to put 2 points for 1 cross class style but you CAN max them.

Able learner just makes it cost 1 for 1 like the feat description says.

It's not Able Learner that's the problem here. It's the NwN engine.

That's not where the bug lies. If you take 1 Rogue and have Able Learner, you can take 19 levels of fighter and max out UMD as if you were a 20 level rogue. By definition, you should not be able to go above the cross class limit you would face if you did not have it(though in UMD's case, its restricted to bard, warlock, and rogue). You can do this trick with other skills like Hide I'm sure. You can make a 1 Rogue/19 Fighter with Max Hide/MS with Able Learner if you wanted to.

[shorn]

I think some of you are somewhat confused. The taking full ranks in disable trap, for example, while only having one level of rogue, and 29 levels of fighter, is in no way the fault of able learned, but in how Obsidian implemented skills. A rogue with 20 intelligence would be able to have full disable trap with only one level of rogue. Able learned just makes it easier to do that.

[tormaksaber]

Apr 26, 2009 15:17:40 GMT -5 shorn said:

I think some of you are somewhat confused. The taking full ranks in disable trap, for example, while only having one level of rogue, and 29 levels of fighter, is in no way the fault of able learned, but in how Obsidian implemented skills. A rogue with 20 intelligence would be able to have full disable trap with only one level of rogue. Able learned just makes it easier to do that.

correct.