|
RDD
Apr 8, 2009 16:33:40 GMT -5
Post by eggshen on Apr 8, 2009 16:33:40 GMT -5
Is the ban on RDD roleplay related? Or is there some concern about balance?
With all the overpowered spells/skills/feats/classes, it strikes me as odd that this one should be singled out.
|
|
|
RDD
Apr 8, 2009 16:46:33 GMT -5
Post by caveman282 on Apr 8, 2009 16:46:33 GMT -5
Is the ban on RDD roleplay related? Or is there some concern about balance? With all the overpowered spells/skills/feats/classes, it strikes me as odd that this one should be singled out. Its ban is mostly due to unbalancing issues to the best of my knowledge. Here is one link I have found concerning it. I am sure there are more but most seem to escalate into arguments and end up getting locked. So research at your own risk. theswordcoast.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=generalissues&action=display&thread=2112
|
|
|
RDD
Apr 8, 2009 16:49:49 GMT -5
Post by eggshen on Apr 8, 2009 16:49:49 GMT -5
Thanks. I'll probably not try to sway anybody's opinion. I just find it. . . amusing. . . that this gets the boot.
|
|
|
RDD
Apr 8, 2009 17:09:03 GMT -5
Post by eggshen on Apr 8, 2009 17:09:03 GMT -5
So I read the thread you linked me to.
From personal experience, the build is not overpowered in PvP. So I can only assume it was banned because it makes it harder to create challenging npc's for a wide variety of classes? There's plenty of non-RDD melee based "powerbuilds" that blow through enemies just as easily as an RDD, so I guess I don't understand what kind of balance has been achieved by it's removal.
And banning something so completely simply makes people who want power move to new classes. There will always be something that people consider to be powerful, and thus they will flock to it. RDD is one of the few good ways to make a buff-lite melee build, which is what I like about it. But I guess with Divine Power being freely available, going buff lite is just silly.
|
|
|
RDD
Apr 8, 2009 18:04:11 GMT -5
Post by caveman282 on Apr 8, 2009 18:04:11 GMT -5
I wasn't around for the banning of it but I have played on servers were half the population was a RDD. I think it has good merit just to close off the class in general. I am sure everyone has their reasons for wanting the class available to them. And you are right there will always be something more powerful. But do more digging if you wish that was just the only link I had time to find for you. I am sure there are plenty more.
My suggestion is just play whats available and not worry about it. You can always Rp one without having to use the class. I am sure there is lots of RP background you could come up with.
|
|
|
RDD
Apr 8, 2009 20:05:55 GMT -5
Post by eggshen on Apr 8, 2009 20:05:55 GMT -5
I'm not too worried about it. It makes it easier to meet a couple feat requirements, but otherwise it's not a huge loss imo. Can get similar AB and damage from 10 levels of fighter with weapon specialization/focus (and 3 higher BAB as well, which could potentially lead to another attack), as well as some added feats.
It's just funny to me. Leads me to think maybe there aren't any hardcore powerbuilders on the dev team (not that such a thing is a problem on a RP server, of course!). To me, RDD isn't as much a balance problem as it is a crutch for would-be powergamers. That so many take it isn't indicative of it's power level, but rather the player-base's lack of knowledge of anything better. Not meant to be insulting to anybody, so hopefully it doesn't come off that way.
|
|
|
RDD
Apr 8, 2009 20:26:23 GMT -5
Post by caveman282 on Apr 8, 2009 20:26:23 GMT -5
If its no big deal then why post about it? Sounds like your just tring to egg a conversation/debate about it while taking a jab at the devs for doing something that has helped the server.
There is plenty of information out there about why its been banned just accept it and move on. They have done a lot more to help this server become what it is today.
The class hasn't been missed and theres no point in discussing it further. Do some digging and you will find your answers.
|
|
|
RDD
Apr 8, 2009 20:52:57 GMT -5
Post by eggshen on Apr 8, 2009 20:52:57 GMT -5
Hmmmm. Really not trying to pick a fight or 'take jabs', my man.
And is questioning the decisions of the dev team so frowned upon here? It's obviously a popular server so they must be doing something right. Not trying to take away from that.
A partial answer was in the first thread you helpfully linked me to. It was for balance concerns, according to the devs. I could continue digging, but I don't see the point as I understand what they mean by balance concerns. That I don't agree with it doens't mean I have some hidden agenda. It isn't so much the removal of RDD itself that I have a problem with, it's attempting to balance something by cutting it off entirely. They didn't really balance the class, they just removed the option of taking it. Far easier, to be sure, but seems extreme to me.
If everybody starts playing Stormlords, and finds ways to really cash in on their strengths, will they too be banned? And when people move to whatever class is perceived to be the next most powerful, that one too?
I suppose if I have other questions, concerns, feedback or hypotheses about any rules, I'll just keep them to myself. Thanks for your help as a Community Rep.
|
|
|
RDD
Apr 8, 2009 21:07:19 GMT -5
Post by caveman282 on Apr 8, 2009 21:07:19 GMT -5
Its not the questioning that is frowned upon. But it was the way you worded it that it sounded like you were taking a jab at the once who have done so much for the server.
The best way to get feed back is to hear from what the players have to say. If you feel the class has been done and injustice after doing the research then perhaps suggesting a solution such as a fix for such class to balance it properly would be a better approach.
I am not a dev and have no knowledge of creating custom classes. If someone is so skilled at that then maybe they could create/edit the class to make it more balanced. It would be awesome to have someone who could edit/create classes but I'm sure the time that is involved in the coding is just not something that is being focused on atm. If such a person could do that and present them then maybe it could be reintroduced and even add more content for adding new classes.
|
|
|
RDD
Apr 8, 2009 21:19:38 GMT -5
Post by stinkymcgirk on Apr 8, 2009 21:19:38 GMT -5
I think the internet has no tone, and so it's easy to misunderstand implications or lack thereof. It's really shameful to see you guys knock this guy's karma down so fast just because you don't like the questions he brings up, and I am also very inclined to agree with his statement.
Why remove only RDD's out of all of the rediculous classes? Such an arbitrary decision brought up more than a little curiousity in myself when I first joined, I simply didn't bother bringing it up because I have no interest in the class myself.
Granted it is rediculous to have a ton of Red Dragon Disciples running around, I'd it's much worse to have a ton of Storm Lords, as is the current situation.
Now, what contstructive can be pulled from this thread?
The fact that it is probably true is that the class was banned because of it's ability to excel against masses of melee mobs- much of what this server is. I believe real improvements to the server would come from added difficulty to mobs in the form of variety. Red Dragon Disciples, for instance, typically have low reflex saves. Why not add more creatures that use very difficult to cope with reflex attacks like sunburst, or even ranged mobs that use entangle and grease?
|
|
|
RDD
Apr 8, 2009 21:28:57 GMT -5
Post by caveman282 on Apr 8, 2009 21:28:57 GMT -5
I agree with stinky on knocking the karma is not good moj, as Egg just asked a question.
But maybe some constructive conversation couldn't hurt as long as it is just that, constructive. If this topic turns to destructive then it will simply disappear.
|
|
ovarf
Active Member
Posts: 197
|
RDD
Apr 8, 2009 22:47:11 GMT -5
Post by ovarf on Apr 8, 2009 22:47:11 GMT -5
my thoughts on it are that fighters tend to be weak compared to other classes in immunities and overall power level. The RDD gave them access to spot and listen in addition to pumping up their natural abilities and give some immunities.
That all said from an RP standpoint the class was a bad joke something like this class with a different background would have been far more tolerable then saying that all fighters had red dragon linage. I suport the ban from an RP standpoint but i also thing that melle classes (monk multiclasses excluded) could use a bost both from a PvP and a PvE standpoint.
Not everyone agrees with this but i find the a lot of the players that do not tend to not play fighter melee types as their primary class. that all said this thred is likely to degrade into a flame war so feel free to lock it and kill this post.
(fixed minor mistype)Caveman:
|
|
|
RDD
Apr 9, 2009 3:38:21 GMT -5
Post by baldursgateway on Apr 9, 2009 3:38:21 GMT -5
Sorry for the long post, but I hoped to clarify the problem here rather than turn this into a flame-war. As for the reason the RDD was banned, I have not read all of the threads here on the subject but I can give you my own personal opinion on why it's just way too good: low magic server. Getting massive bonuses to your base stats, armor, etc, just goes beyond overpowering on a server where +3 items are strong (correct me if there are higher, I haven't seen any). It's quite possible for a fighter type build with 10 levels of RDD to reach 40-50 strength and just smash the crap out of everything in sight. Additionally, and more importantly in my opinion, the class just screams cheese. Every power gamer is a min-maxer, and RDD is the number one class for this. All it does it boost your stats so you can make some other class even stronger. If I had to guess as to why it was removed, that would be it. It's kind of the same reason I quit playing my Stormlord for the most part, I'd run into a DM event with some monster that a whole party of wonderful RP'ers were hacking at as best they could and crying out battlecries. Then I'd cry out to Talos "LOL GG MONSTAR" and dish out 500 or more damage in a few rounds and it'd die, ruining the epicness of the encounter. I felt like I was ruining the fun for everyone and it sucked, the devs probably saw the RDD problem early on and just ended it before it got anymore out of control. Our main designer also pointed out that like 50% of the builds on the "power builds" page on the NWN2 wikia page use RDD... enough said. To the OP: don't let people get you down cause you asked a few hard questions, I think the hostility comes from these questions having been asked a lot and old debates (flame wars maybe) about them bringing back old memories - which triggers the hands to type mean, nasty things to faceless souls across the interwebs. When I first came here I was sad to see some things banned, but I quickly realized it was for the best. Hope you like it here, it's loads of fun. And on the note of Stormlord - it's getting nerfed too! So it's not just RDD.
|
|
|
RDD
Apr 9, 2009 4:56:18 GMT -5
Post by eggshen on Apr 9, 2009 4:56:18 GMT -5
"LOL GG MONSTAR"
Oh man, that made me laugh so hard! It's pretty late here, and I guess I'm a little punchy, but I can not stop picturing the scenario you described in my head and just cracking up.
I understand the roleplay problems associated with RDDs (and SL, Red Wizard, ASoCK, etc.), which was why I thought perhaps that was the source of the ban. As for balance, you kind of made good points for both banning, and not banning. On the one hand, you've got a class that was making the balancing of encouters tough. On the other hand, you don't need that class to make a build that is incredibly powerful, as evidenced by your Stormlord build.
So is the Stormlord getting a nerf? Or is it going to get banned like the RDD? I don't see why one is salvageable and the other is not. If the nerfs are severe enough, the powergamers will find another way to make the normal encounters joke-like with whatever build happens to seem the best at the time. THAT is essentially what I find confusing. If something is done for 'balance,' and then that balance is made obsolete by new builds that are nearly as powerful, did the ban really do anything?
With Divine Power, Shadow Simulacrum, UMD, Expose Weakness, Divine Shield, Bigby Spells, max level ECL classes, HIPS etc. all posing what seem to me to be balance issues, I can't help but be confused about the one hardcore nerf that was implemented. Again, I don't really MIND that it's gone, I guess I just don't understand the process and I'm not really sure where it ends.
As for DM'd encounters, I see nothing wrong with a DM asking you to sit it out since it's balanced more for the RP crowd, rather than the PG crowd.
As for constructive suggestions, I'd say to isolate the real issue and fix it. If +8 STR is too much, perhaps +2 and then +2 again for a total of +4 would be better. Instead of getting 4 AC, perhaps only 2 AC. Maybe toss in a weakness to cold to balance out the immunity to fire. And a low magic setting makes several builds more powerful than they would otherwise be. . . do we ban them all? For instance, clerics get +5 stuff via spells easily enough, so having fighters cruise around with +3 gear is inherently problematic. Druids can get crazy huge wisdom scores with their buffs, making their epic spells very tough to balance for. Perhaps the problem is having level 30 builds with "limited" magical gear? It's a tangled web, balancing, and it's hard to determine sometimes what is the cause of a problem, or perhaps the effect of a different problem.
I certainly don't have the answers. Either way it's all good and the server is doing quite well, so it's hardly a make or break issue.
|
|
|
RDD
Apr 9, 2009 5:03:47 GMT -5
Post by DM mithari on Apr 9, 2009 5:03:47 GMT -5
Again, I'm no Dev, but I have a rough idea for you why RDD might not "salvageable", while the Stormlord might be. This is due to that most feats are hard-coded in the game, meaning that the code isn't (easily, at least) accessible to modders. Removing an ability from a class is easy, as is giving them another feat that might have a similar but lesser effect, and if the ability is an actively used one (like the Stormlord's shocking/sonic weapon ability) you can attach a cooldown or restrict uses per day easily too. But changing a class ability/feat's fundamental workings requires a lot more work. *disclaimer* Above information might not be 100% accurate, but to the best of my knowledge it's is pretty close.
|
|