Jerick Silverkin
Active Member
Recovering from Karmic stun
Sharp pointy sticks... keeping enemies at bay since the dawn of time
Posts: 138
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Post by Jerick Silverkin on Apr 7, 2009 13:50:11 GMT -5
I can't second your proposal for this as a 26th rule as I'm about to start a post titled:
[glow=red,2,300]"My Red Dragon Disciple/Stormlord/Blackguard/Bard --- and how he intends to spread law & cheer and randomly PvP in Faerun"[/glow]
...but after that, I'm totally with you.
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steelforgedsword
Senior Member
"Is anything more scary than Homer Simpson with a Gun?"
Posts: 335
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Post by steelforgedsword on Apr 7, 2009 14:11:27 GMT -5
Now....that's....sarcasm...nicely done.
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Post by baldursgateway on Apr 7, 2009 16:03:43 GMT -5
There are only two zones with undead in them, as far as I'm aware. But even if the PW were crawling with them, turn undead is a worthless ability. Its main use is fueling divine might/divine shield. I don't know about that. A high charisma, full Turn progression, and the Sun or Evil domains make Turn Undead really attractive for me as a player. I've played a lot of TU intensive characters before and people who scoff at the ability generally just aren't willing to invest the stat scores and/or feats into an ability that makes a cakewalk out of a chunk of opposition. Imagine a TU effect that drops outsiders like tieflings, gith, devils, demons, and so forth; all in a mass wave. Or seeing vampires and even nightstalkers keel over afer a good TU roll. Properly built, a cleric who builds "wide" along his class abilities is a very powerful force on the generalist battlefield. This isn't even counting the kind of effects that creative use of Divine Feats can accomplish in tandem. In the end, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I think that a perspective that examines all possibilities for cleric abilities and what you gain versus give up when taking a prestige class is important. I'm not saying a SL isn't attractive, but I am denying that it isn't lacking in certain departments, and definitely does not put a base cleric to shame in a general build sense. Unless there are tons of Undead on a PW, then it's flat-out wrong that a Stormlord doesn't put a base Cleric to shame - particularly on a low-magic setting like this one. 1-8 sonic, 1-8 electric (+crit damage) +3 to hit and damage Run speed bonus at will (for a very long duration) All at the cost of what? Some very nice feats (Great Fort is decent, but the others are quite strong) which don't hurt you at all. On a low-magic setting like this one, that extra hit/damage and elemental damage is the equivalent of doing nearly double damage on each hit (my Stormlord at level 15 does 40+ damage per hit and solos epic zones with ease). Oh and you get immunity to a very common form of elemental damage, can run super fast, become immune to knockdown and missiles for minutes at a time. And if you are fighting Undead, you lost some Turning, but you can just stab them for double damage and it doesn't really matter. Anyways, I love the class, I've always been a fan of Stormlord's and Talos since 2nd edition... but since there is basically no drawback to taking the class EVERYONE is taking it. At the very minimum it would balance things pretty well to have this prestige class lose a little spell progression and be "Talos only" like it is in PnP. Also enforce "Talos" alignments: Chaotic Neutral and Evil only. This last bit is a question for the devs: do you feel that only a cleric of Talos should be allowed to be a Stormlord or can Favored Soul or other "priest" types who worship Talos and meet the requirements become a Stormlord?
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nael
Senior Member
42
Posts: 294
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Post by nael on Apr 7, 2009 16:08:47 GMT -5
This last bit is a question for the devs: do you feel that only a cleric of Talos should be allowed to be a Stormlord or can Favored Soul or other "priest" types who worship Talos and meet the requirements become a Stormlord? Wouldn't being struck by lightning and surviving be considered "Favored"?
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Post by Shadoril on Apr 7, 2009 17:58:10 GMT -5
Pure clerics get: Tower shields which is a massive AC bonus. Free Keen if they use a blunt weapon which Storm Lord's don't get because they use spears. The Turn Undead progression... As far as I'm concerned if someone wants to really powerbuild, you can't stop them by just nerfing a good prestige class. Now what would be really imba is if storm lord's got high BAB progression as well... You can still use a tower shield and monkey grip that spear can you not? Which is what I see everyone doing. On the part of Undead, I've only seen a handful of UD monsters so far, so I'm totally indifferent on the turning thing at this point. However, I am dying to make a Doomguide when SoZ stuff becomes available and make him an all out Undead killer. Are there many zones with Undead in them on this PW? I haven't seen them yet. You see Stormlord's doing that? I haven't seen a single one... Not only is it extremely bad RP and kills the flavour alot (Dreaded moves-like-the-winds, rides-the-storms Stormlord hiding behind a massive tower shield, huh?). And here's the trade off: 2 feats - Monkey Grip, Tower Shield Proficiency -2 attack penalty And I quote from NWN2 wiki: It should be noted that when you equip a two-handed weapon with one hand using this feat, that the game treats it as a one handed weapon for all bonuses. You will not get double Power Attack damage, and you will not get 1.5x strength bonus, because the game considers it a one hand weapon. So that's -0.5 x your strength bonus For +4 AC +what ever bonus the tower shield has, on this server it's probably gonna be 2, MAX 3. So let's say +6-7AC. I highly doubt any DM will give a tower shield +4 Simplified: 2 feats, -2 attack penalty, -0.5 xSTR bonus added to your attack bonus, -10 armor check penalty For +6-7 AC Ok you could argue that the best offense is a good defense and that the AC bonus is worth it but it really does make a big difference to your damage output and more attack is probably better for PvE. This isn't a PvP server, if it was, the trade-off would probably be worth it as high AC = win PvP. Also you give up a huge RP element to playing a stormlord. Also regarding other divine classes taking the class: Druids, yes it works quite well Rangers, yes... RP-wise but it completely wastes either class' benefits Spirit Shamans, not so much, commune with storm spirits maybe? Favoured Souls, definitely Clerics, indefinitely
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Post by baldursgateway on Apr 7, 2009 19:37:07 GMT -5
You can still use a tower shield and monkey grip that spear can you not? Which is what I see everyone doing. On the part of Undead, I've only seen a handful of UD monsters so far, so I'm totally indifferent on the turning thing at this point. However, I am dying to make a Doomguide when SoZ stuff becomes available and make him an all out Undead killer. Are there many zones with Undead in them on this PW? I haven't seen them yet. You see Stormlord's doing that? I haven't seen a single one... Not only is it extremely bad RP and kills the flavour alot (Dreaded moves-like-the-winds, rides-the-storms Stormlord hiding behind a massive tower shield, huh?). And here's the trade off: 2 feats - Monkey Grip, Tower Shield Proficiency -2 attack penalty And I quote from NWN2 wiki: It should be noted that when you equip a two-handed weapon with one hand using this feat, that the game treats it as a one handed weapon for all bonuses. You will not get double Power Attack damage, and you will not get 1.5x strength bonus, because the game considers it a one hand weapon. So that's -0.5 x your strength bonus For +4 AC +what ever bonus the tower shield has, on this server it's probably gonna be 2, MAX 3. So let's say +6-7AC. I highly doubt any DM will give a tower shield +4 Simplified: 2 feats, -2 attack penalty, -0.5 xSTR bonus added to your attack bonus, -10 armor check penalty For +6-7 AC Ok you could argue that the best offense is a good defense and that the AC bonus is worth it but it really does make a big difference to your damage output and more attack is probably better for PvE. This isn't a PvP server, if it was, the trade-off would probably be worth it as high AC = win PvP. Also you give up a huge RP element to playing a stormlord. Also regarding other divine classes taking the class: Druids, yes it works quite well Rangers, yes... RP-wise but it completely wastes either class' benefits Spirit Shamans, not so much, commune with storm spirits maybe? Favoured Souls, definitely Clerics, indefinitely I'm aware of the difference between one-handed and two-handed damage. However, there are some fights (most melee past level 10) where getting hit regularly just isn't viable if you don't want to rest after every fight. Having +7 AC is monstrous, going from being hit 50% of the time to nearly unhittable. As for Monkey Grip, you wouldn't always have the shield out. If you are buffed up and don't need the AC, drop the shield and do the extra damage. As for the other situations, as I pointed out above having 7 AC is often gamebreaking. I'm not saying every Stormlord I've seen does this, but plenty do. Anyways, I don't really have any problem with Stormlords being strong, the problem I have is with them giving up very little (imo nothing) to get all these bonuses - and mainly with them being RP'd as good servants of Talos (or just straight up Paladins or whatever). It kind of grinds on your nerves when you've been played REAL Clerics of Talos for over 10 years. Again take a look at other Prestige classes, few give up so little to receive so much.
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Post by adzling on Apr 7, 2009 19:41:19 GMT -5
a fix is in the works
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Post by Not-Kasso on Apr 7, 2009 19:43:40 GMT -5
I'm going to go ahead and point out that ALL pure arcane/divine spellcasters are inevitably overpowered at high levels. It is not just the Storm Lords. Wizards, Clerics, Druids, every single one of them has the potential through spell-list adaptability to essentially play 'the one' they have no true weaknesses because they can alter their entire purpose after a simple 6 second rest. Not only that but a Cleric or Druid can alter their purpose to suddenly get better then a fighter counterpart in close combat, while still having a plethora of stupidly high level spells to rain down upon their enemies like the wrath of hell. Storm Lords being overpowered on the basis that they can do lots of damage is like saying that arcane spellcasters are overpowered on the basis of "WAIL OF THE BANSHEE". Personally I don't see the point in argueing IMBA in regards to DnD, it isn't balanced, it was never intended to be balanced. Prestige classes are not balanced, there was never anything remotely hinting at an attempt to make the game balanced throughout any of the books or suppliments. Neverwinter Nights 2 follows that tradition. You'd have to litterally rework the entire engine to make the game remotely balanced. I think Clever players should be nerfed, because really, they're the most dangerous animals of all. I know none of them will complain about me mentioning their nerf though cause none of them are here.
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Post by adzling on Apr 7, 2009 19:51:23 GMT -5
thanks for you input...
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Post by Not-Kasso on Apr 7, 2009 19:59:40 GMT -5
Rule 1 of Dealing with Kasso; Don't take anything he says seriously, or your brain may hemorage. In it for fun, I don't personally care about SL any, friend of mine just pointed out this thread and I felt that SOMEONE should state the obvious.
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Post by baldursgateway on Apr 7, 2009 20:06:27 GMT -5
I'm going to go ahead and point out that ALL pure arcane/divine spellcasters are inevitably overpowered at high levels. It is not just the Storm Lords. Wizards, Clerics, Druids, every single one of them has the potential through spell-list adaptability to essentially play 'the one' they have no true weaknesses because they can alter their entire purpose after a simple 6 second rest. Not only that but a Cleric or Druid can alter their purpose to suddenly get better then a fighter counterpart in close combat, while still having a plethora of stupidly high level spells to rain down upon their enemies like the wrath of hell. Storm Lords being overpowered on the basis that they can do lots of damage is like saying that arcane spellcasters are overpowered on the basis of "WAIL OF THE BANSHEE". Personally I don't see the point in argueing IMBA in regards to DnD, it isn't balanced, it was never intended to be balanced. Prestige classes are not balanced, there was never anything remotely hinting at an attempt to make the game balanced throughout any of the books or suppliments. Neverwinter Nights 2 follows that tradition. You'd have to litterally rework the entire engine to make the game remotely balanced. I think Clever players should be nerfed, because really, they're the most dangerous animals of all. I know none of them will complain about me mentioning their nerf though cause none of them are here. Exactly how does one define a "clever" player? One could say that they are clever for making a power-build, playing a class well, etc... It seems that I've upset some people by posting about getting their Stormlord nerfed, to be honest I think a fix was on the way. Keep in mind I play one, and I plan to play mine more... however it gets old when you are trying to RP a Stormlord (which is supposed to be feared) and all you get from people is "oh great, another one of you guys!". In reality I'm totally cool with the only "fix" to them being enforced alignment and deity restrictions (as well as requiring players to play it like that), I just thought this fix seemed pretty good all around. They give up some spellcasting (for a PC that is likely melee based it's really not that bad) to hit nearly twice as hard and gain some immunities.
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Post by adzling on Apr 7, 2009 20:07:13 GMT -5
he's joking
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Post by Shadoril on Apr 8, 2009 6:33:22 GMT -5
So just to clarify, the fix is going to be that spell progression is every odd/even level?
Cause I need to plan adjustments if that is the case.
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