nael
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Post by nael on Mar 27, 2009 0:20:46 GMT -5
Those spirits have to get their powers from somewhere too. I gotta strongly disagree with what I believe you are implying here mithari. The spirits gain their "powers" from the ritual bindings performed by shamans and witches. Not any particular deities. In fact I would argue that out of all possible classes, at least from NWN2 that the Spirit Shaman could actually have a predilection to "faithlessness". I base this on the fact that spirits (esp. those found in Rashemen) have not passed into the Fugue Plane and instead remain to protect the lands they are bound to by shamans, witches, and the other various Rashemi that deal with these beings.
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Jiszo
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Post by Jiszo on Mar 27, 2009 6:22:29 GMT -5
That is a very good point there. I would think spirit shaman would the only exclusion to the rule. The only reason my character follows a diety is because its a giant blue bear and to him bears are sacred. I've looked at other possible routes to rp a diety and really couldn't come up with anything, to me it just doesn't make sense since they deal with spirits, but then again, if I'm not mistaken, aren't the powerful spirits of Rashemen viewed as minor gods?
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Post by DM mithari on Mar 27, 2009 6:28:58 GMT -5
The Rashemi people believing that the spirits are gods doesn't make it true. As I see it, it's sort of like how dragons can naturally cast spells. Just as they have a natural talent for harnessing the Weave to perform arcane spells, so do the spirits have the blessings of certain deities to perform divine(ish) spells, the same thing that they then proceed to grant spirit shaman access to. In the end, it comes down to what you feel overrides what. FR lore clearly states that all divine casters must choose a deity - and the game asks that spirit shaman do so in the creator as well - while the spirit shaman rules (a completely setting neutral class to begin with) call on the base D&D rules, most working with a base in the rule stating that you don't need to follow a deity for divine spells at all. But that rule is overridden in Forgotten Realms. And that's my reasoning in the subject. Yours may vary
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nael
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Post by nael on Mar 28, 2009 1:03:51 GMT -5
but then again, if I'm not mistaken, aren't the powerful spirits of Rashemen viewed as minor gods? Pulled from "Races of Faerun" Rashemi Deities:Traditionally, the Rashemi venerate "the Three" -- Chauntea, Milikki, and the Hidden One (Mystra), a trio of goddesses introduced centuries ago to Rashemen by the folk of Thesk. They also venerate a host of local place-spirits and spirit-heroes little known elsewhere in Faerun. The spirits of Rashemen do not have names, but express their actions through miracles, omens, and by dispatching servitors. Outside Rashemen, many Rashemi nominally venerate the deities of Mulhorand as well. However, centuries of persecution by the Red Wizards of Thay have ensured that such worship is confined largely to the home. Small cults of the four elemental deities, particularly Kossuth, exist as well, legacies of Raumviran influence over the culture of the Rashemi.[/i] But anyways, back to my original question... I have been considering what ovarf had to say on the first page of this thread: actually in PnP you did not have to pick a god to be a cleric. you could just be a priest of the pantheon which honestly should be a lot more common then it is. If there is evidence that all the gods are real why would people just pick one and ignore or claim the rest to be false? The whole culture is polytheistic but i think a lot of pepole are hung up on a monotheistic world view and cling to a false notion that there can be only one where thous would acually be the outliers not the norm So could it be possible for a "Faithless" (emphasis on the quotes) person to still cast divine spells by appeasing a particular pantheon, but not declaring allegiance to any one deity? I mean, in the realm of Faerun I think one would have to be either mentally handicapped, raised by wolves alone on an island in the middle of nowhere, or epically stubborn to not actually believe that the gods existed. RP-wise the character I had in mind I only call Faithless because he sees no reason to kneel down and worship to deities that he feels are just as mortal as himself, despite harboring a wealth of power. His belief is that death itself is the only object in all the planes worth worshipping as all beings, ideas, and states are subject to it's finality. Including the multiple gods whose portfolios include some aspect of death, dying, or fatalism. I have to say that RP'ing this monk of the Long Death has been interesting from a philosophical standpoint. Placing myself in his boots so to speak I really wonder how he would view deity worship, particularly when it relates to any of the deities that focus upon death (Myrkul, Valsharoon, Kelemvor, Jergal, etc). From what I have gathered the Order of the Long Death studies all aspects of death and if I were a member of the Order I think it would be difficult to owe allegiance to just one of those deities. Especially when they are prone to dying themselves. This is the paradox that concerned me when I considered which deity a monk of the Long Death would choose. So I guess my final question would be if one did not find it necessary to swear allegiance to any one deity, but still acknowledged their existence would it be possible to curry any sort of divine power through a general worship of death itself and not the deity that rules over that portfolio at any given time? Perhaps Jergal would approve of such an attitude as his sense of fatalism is less demanding than others in the business of ruling over some aspect of death whether it is guarding the remains of the dead, or spreading more death? He also seems less concerned with gaining more power through an increase in followers as he has resigned himself to the fate of all things in the universe: Entropy, decay, and finally death.
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Post by mingming on Apr 18, 2009 7:13:31 GMT -5
I'm going to have to chime in and maybe a bit ferociously in my defense of the clerical players's freedom to choose his faith and how it works.
First off, the Realms is NOT defined solely by Faerun. There are three other continents which have been shoehorned into the Forgotten Realms even though two of them did not originally start there, and they do NOT follow the rules that Faerun's pantheons and gods do.
Kara-Tur aka Oriental Adventures does not follow or recognize the gods of Faerun, and the faith rules of Faerun do not apply to the characters from there. They worship forces, spirits, philosophies, and entire court pantheons.
Al-Quadim aka Zakhara aka the Land of Fate does not follow or recognize the gods of Faerun, and the faith rules of Faerun do not apply to the characters from there. They worship the force of Fate and open pantheons set up to accept all alignments and devotions.
Maztica does not follow or recognize the gods of Faerun, and the faith rules of Faerun do not apply to the characters from there. They have a fiercely protective pantheon that actively wars against interloper dieties and protects their followers from any intrusion by the forces of Faerun's dieities.
None of the above is subject to the rules and traditions that the dieties of Faerun do. No Wall of the Faithless. No AO. No Weave to define magic. Nada, zippo, 'none of the above' is the correct checked box to answer for those settings and characters.
Furthermore it should be noted that adventurers from other worlds COMMONLY visit the Realms and spend time there. Wizards from Greyhawk being the most notable, having left their signature spells all over the damned place. However clerics too also come and go via planar travel and portals, and the Manual of the Planes and the Planescape setting describe them as being able to worship their respective faiths and still receive their spells and abilities without any interference from the gods of the pantheons of Faerun. Heck, I've often considered bringing in an alternate character who IS from Greyhawk, as there's a lot of good cross-play potential involved in such a endeavor.
Let's be blunt as well, there are a limited fraction of gods and choices available in the NWN2 engine without adding in custom 2da's. Some of the most devoted and knowledgable players of Realms lore WILL likely at some point be making use of the rich source material available to them. This means the better informed and devoted roleplayers will be wanting to define their characters in ways that will require some adjustment and "out of the box" thinking to properly represent their characters. This ties in with the really annoying forum topic of forcing cleric PC's to choose ONLY the limited choices of Domains represented in the NWN2 engine, even though their actual PNP deity's domain choices are often DOUBLE the number represented in NWN2. Sometimes, it's BETTER for roleplay if the PC has the option of substituting something that fits their concept better.
If we are indeed about encouraging roleplaying, then we should not be punishing the creative and resource dedicated players who want to make the appropriate choices for a character concept. And for those would argue that BGTSCC should only appropriately support Faerunian characters; I've got news for them, because the source material straight out has characters involved from all the myriad places I've described above. Yoshimo (Of BG fame) from Kara-Tur; Yamun Khahun and his Horde; the entire debacle of Amn and the Temple of Helm bringing characters and goods back and forth between Maztica and the Sword Coast; Haer D'Alise and his tiefling troupe of actors from Sigil/Planescape; it's all there and I think it is part of what makes the play of Forgotten Realms richer. The BGTSCC is the richer for having characters from a myriad of source materials. We should be encouraging good development and character research, not tightening screws down on player creativity and detailed origins.
Please, remember that the reason many of are here is because of the fondness we have for the source material, the classic games, and the past writings of our favorite in-world authors. Yes, I know there are some who have never played D&D and couldn't give a fig about it, BUT then, let me ask you... WHY would anyone base the server on the material and use a platform that is designed to replicate the game itself if they did not want to pay homage to it? People come to play D&D style adventures here. They come to relive and experience the memories they have of the game and the associated world settings. Thusly the focus should be to encourage that drawing power rather than downplaying it.
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Post by DM mithari on Apr 18, 2009 9:41:24 GMT -5
The fundamental issue here being that we are playing in a region of Faerûn here, like it or not, which would mean that by your reasoning the rules of those gods would apply there, while those of the other continents would not.
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Post by mingming on Apr 18, 2009 11:02:09 GMT -5
No, actually if you are familiar with the Manual of the Planes, the Forgotten Realms sourcebooks, and the various diety books, the way "visiting" clerics and other servants and followers are treated when on the "home turf" of other pantheons is that they continue to receive the spells and powers of their patrons, even if there is not a direct divine link, such as due to planar spheres; while the ruling home pantheon (or closest matching diety) extends the courtesy of "lending" divine power to the guest petitioners, in exchange for the same courtesy when their servants are travelling to other spheres of influence. It's very clear in both the second and third edition books such as Faiths and Pantheons, Dieties and Demigods, Manual of the Planes, and so forth.
This is in fact how some non-native deities came to the Realms, such as Tyr and Oghma, whose followers and servants immigrated from an "unnamed plane/sphere"" which is basically Earth; and those servants eventually set up enough influence to generate divine energies, upon which time they joined a home pantheon.
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Post by DM mithari on Apr 18, 2009 12:12:19 GMT -5
Not to be ornery or anything, but...
Similar things for the other two. Why would the same rules not apply to Faerûn? As far as I remember, until Ao let the Mulhorandi gods actually do anything on Faerûn, they couldn't (which would lead one to presume that the same would have applied for Tyr and the likes until Ao allowed them). Why would it be different with deities from other "realities"/continents?
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Post by mingming on Apr 18, 2009 20:34:16 GMT -5
I will dig up the actual rules and cut and paste them, but it's not really useful to ask me "why" the rules work the way they do. This is the way the cosmology works. Faerun visiting clerics to Kara-Tur, Zakhara, Greyhawk, Krynn, whatever world... still get their spells and class abilities granted to them. The local gods allow this as a courtesy. Likewise, their own servants get spells and abilities in other lands. What does not count however, is the arbitrary rules such as "Must have a patron god or end up in the Wall of the Faithless". A visiting foreigner would not be forced to change their faith nor would they be subject to the Wall of the Faithless. It'll take me a day to dig out my books and find the relevant chapters and sections in any case.
BTW- the case of the Mulharandi Pantheon is not quite accurate, as that particular pantheon was in the process of being "invaded" and absorbed, similar to the situation of antagonism going on between the Maztican gods and the crusade by Helm and Tempus's followers that have pushed into the New World.
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