|
Post by eviliguana966 on Mar 5, 2009 17:50:23 GMT -5
*Edit: Revised Data. See Below*
**Original Post: Contains Inaccurate Information**
There is a problem with the feat Divine Might. As you no doubt know, it takes up to 3 rounds to cast a spell in NWN2. Once you click the icon, your character stops doing anything for the rest of the round, then you cast the spell, or feat in this case, which takes a round to do, then you sit around doing nothing for another round, at the end of which you resume your attacks.
Now Divine Might adds my charisma bonus worth of divine damage to my attacks for a number of rounds equal to my charisma bonus, and uses up a Turn Undead attempt. The round spent standing idle after casting counts as one of those rounds. I have an 18 base cha, +2 from my cloak, for a quite significant 20 (+5) cha. I do on average 10.5 damage per melee hit, and attack 3 times per round. That means I lose 10.5 damage/hit * 3 attacks * 3 rounds casting in return for gaining 5 damage/hit * 3 attacks * 4 rounds. In other words, I am losing 34.5 damage on average when I use this feat. Feats are supposed to be helpful, and though this one looks very much so, it is actually detrimental.
I don't think that the devs have the ability to fix the screwed up casting time as it's probably an engine bug, so I'd suggest at the very least increasing the duration by 1 round so the effect actually matches the description. Then I stand at least a chance to gain damage from this feat before I take the feat at level 29 for the(very prerequisite heavy*) epic version that doubles the damage and duration. Even better would be a fixed duration of something like 10 rounds so you don't need a crazy charisma to get any use out of it.
*requires power attack, divine might, 21 str, 21 cha, and the ability to turn undead
**End Original Post**
I was wrong about the 3 rounds. I took an actual watch (heavens!) and found that I was way off. It is indeed only 1-2 rounds rather than 2-3 rounds, which helps. HOWEVER, I was NOT wrong about the effect duration. I still only get 4 rounds of buffed attacks. This part is NOT in question. I have tested it multiple times.
So the numbers are better now, they are as follows. I lose 31.5 average damage per round, and that means 31.5 damage lost best case, 63 worst case. Divine Might then adds 15 damage per round for 4 rounds, which results in 60 damage. The feat therefore adds between -3 (yes, adds a negative number) and 28.5 average damage, which is pretty poor for a +5 cha mod.
All that really needs to be done to fix the feat to a reasonable level is to increase the duration by 1 round so that it lasts the duration listed in the description.
|
|
|
Post by adzling on Mar 5, 2009 18:09:20 GMT -5
divine might is very cha dependent and that's the way it's meant to be.
I think that is meant to be a free action to activate but i could be wrong.
given clerics power potential in general (yes they are the most powerful class in game) this is small potatoes imho.
|
|
|
Post by DM mithari on Mar 5, 2009 18:12:03 GMT -5
I think Divine Might is mostly useful for paladins. I can't see the Cha investment being much worth it for a cleric.
That said, I believe it's a simple matter to add a "+1" to the code. I haven't actually managed to *find* the feat scripts yet, but it should be an easy change...
Provided it's even interesting to the Devs. ;D
|
|
|
Post by broham2 on Mar 5, 2009 18:12:08 GMT -5
It seems that by the same token one could argue that all spells should be extended one round.. if casting in fact takes that extra round (it has never been bothersome to me I guess).
What would justify nerfing one spell if the 'problem' is there for all of them?
|
|
|
Post by DM mithari on Mar 5, 2009 18:17:14 GMT -5
Well. Should a feat ever be a clear cut loss for anyone who can take it, early or late in the game? Just the fact that it is so for anyone seems to be enough reason to bump it up a little so that it isn't. Feats are far between, after all. Also, spells don't generally have you waiting for a next round of attacks to actually make the effect noticeable.
|
|
|
Post by merctroop on Mar 5, 2009 18:52:39 GMT -5
Trick to using spells or abilities that require full round is to use them at the end of a round. If you cast divine might in the middle of a round your attacking, then yea your character will idle. It takes a little bit of micromanaging.
I'm not really seeing how it takes three rounds to work. It takes one round to cast, then the next round ability starts to work as you gain the benefit.
Yes Divine might does not work correctly along with many other abilities as far as I know. It should be instant effect.
Personally its not one of the feats I would like to see buffed. Shadow dancers shadow evade, spirit shaman spirit form, are things I'd like to see made instant due to their limited durations. Which cannot be effected.
|
|
|
Post by DM mithari on Mar 5, 2009 19:01:20 GMT -5
That's what I get for not checking the maths. And reading at late hours. Yes, I don't see how you lose more than 1 round worth of attacks casting. Perhaps you could elaborate on that?
|
|
mrdeadman
Senior Member
I'll thank you to keep your reality out of my fantasy.
Posts: 308
|
Post by mrdeadman on Mar 5, 2009 20:44:35 GMT -5
I've never noticed the extra round after casting to do anything. But, this could be because I have my keyboard set up to "perform default action on target" when I hit the space bar. Default action on an enemy is attack, of course, so hit while activating Divine might puts the attack in the line of actions and starts immediately after activation.
As for losing the rest of the attacks in the round you "push the button", you just have to work on your timing. You know you get three attacks a round so keep count.
|
|
|
Post by eviliguana966 on Mar 5, 2009 21:08:04 GMT -5
Queued spells seem to go off every round, so this is only really an issue if you cast and then melee. So spells like divine favor also suffer, but the fact that it has a 10 round duration kind of blunts that. Technically, it is broken in the same fashion, but is not underpowered such that it reduces damage. The comments about the first "lost round" are correct. If you don't queue the ability till after your last attack you don't lose any of them, which is why I said "up to". You can time it to minimize lost attacks, but there's always that chance you screw up and sometimes it takes a moment to figure out which attack you are on in the first place. Even still, being out of commission 2 rounds rather than 3 just makes you a bit closer to breaking even. What is definitely not in dispute is that you do not get 5 rounds worth of buffed attacks, you only get 4. I tested this. Also, I think 20 cha at level 12 is a pretty reasonably good score for a paladin, especially since to get the followup to this feat you also need 21 str. In a low-mid magic world, a +5 stat modifier is supposed to be pretty damn powerful. I think Divine Might is mostly useful for paladins. I can't see the Cha investment being much worth it for a cleric.
That said, I believe it's a simple matter to add a "+1" to the code. I haven't actually managed to *find* the feat scripts yet, but it should be an easy change... nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=NWN2Scripts.Detail&id=85This guy's spell fix pack says it fixes it.
|
|
|
Post by hnefi on Mar 6, 2009 3:47:43 GMT -5
Queued spells seem to go off every round, so this is only really an issue if you cast and then melee. So spells like divine favor also suffer, but the fact that it has a 10 round duration kind of blunts that. Technically, it is broken in the same fashion, but is not underpowered such that it reduces damage. It's not broken (other than it's supposed to be a free action). You don't need to queue spells to have them go off every round; I often do melee-spell (or inspiration)-melee combos without losing any rounds standing idle. Remember, a round is 6 seconds. It takes 3 seconds to cast a spell or use a feat - the rest of that time is spent idle, but it still only affects that one round. No, you're out of commission one round, not 3. If you mess up, you will in the worst case be out of commission two rounds, only one of which counts against the duration of the feat/spell (actually, only half that round counts against the duration since it is dependent on time, not rounds).
|
|
nebulonb
Active Member
Monkeys can be Scientists Too!
Posts: 107
|
Post by nebulonb on Mar 6, 2009 10:25:52 GMT -5
My high level paladin uses divine might all the time and I never have a problem. First round I 'cast it', then I get seven rounds of +7 damage and such.
Sure you lose the first round to cast it, but thats all, I've never lost any other time from it. Also the duration begins the round after you cast it. I always get seven full attack flurries with +7 whenever I use it and my charisma bonus is +7.
|
|
|
Post by adzling on Mar 6, 2009 12:23:58 GMT -5
thanks nebulonb.
"issue" settled.
|
|
|
Post by eviliguana966 on Mar 6, 2009 17:38:13 GMT -5
My high level paladin uses divine might all the time and I never have a problem. First round I 'cast it', then I get seven rounds of +7 damage and such. Sure you lose the first round to cast it, but thats all, I've never lost any other time from it. Also the duration begins the round after you cast it. I always get seven full attack flurries with +7 whenever I use it and my charisma bonus is +7. Check it again. You are only getting 6 rounds of buffed attacks. Of this I am sure. Best way to test is to try it on a chest as they are easy targets and don't die. I revised my OP to correct for my error regarding the phantom "lost round". My apologies for providing erroneous data.
|
|
|
Post by strobhen on Mar 10, 2009 1:26:59 GMT -5
In general, you should only get knocked out for a round. The trick to divine might is to use it right before the fight starts (when the enemies are running towards you). Should make it a quick fight.
Don't think this really needs any fixing. It is just a feat you need to build around a little to make it useful.
|
|
atlas
Active Member
Posts: 177
|
Post by atlas on Mar 10, 2009 4:32:58 GMT -5
If it was me I would edit Divine Might and Shield to last a minute X your charisma modifier to bring it in line with all the other buffs other classes make use of that are actualy usefull.
You have to waste 2 out of 7 (or eight if you're a human) feat selections as a paladin to gain these feats and they last 1 round X your charisma modifier? Compared to things like combat expertise, imp combat expertise, elephant hide and tortoise skin, this is a joke. And chances are you wont be stacking it with combat expertise due to the paladins spartan stat allocation, unless you want to be running around with 13 strength, being barely able to carry fullplate in your inventory.
So then after taking Extra Smiting you're left with only 4-5 general feat selections to try and salvage some usefullness out of your character. And here's the real kicker - Mages and Sorcerers get FREE feat selections for things like metamagic every five levels, even Rogues get free selections for Rogue only feats, all the while the paladin is left to try and find some kind of useful balance between divine and general feats. After all what's the point of the class even existing if you're not going to try and use their alloted abilites, you may aswell just be a Fighter.
Better yet, merge the two feats and call it something like 'Holy Juggernaught', then you wont have to lose a round casting one after the other.
My paladin has what? 28 charisma with aura of glory, so that's 8 rounds for Divine Might or 48 seconds and 9 rounds for Divine Shield or 54 seconds after being cast one after another. Then after barely killing one or two mobs at least 6 levels or more beneath him he has to stand around for another 2 rounds getting wailed upon. It's all chalked up to game mechanics that work in a turned based system like pnp DnD but not a video game like Neverwinternights 2.
But that's Paladins, the Harper Scouts of the base class list.
|
|