Post by atlas on Feb 19, 2009 16:06:17 GMT -5
I'm making this thread to try and get some issues with this class addressed, those mainly being bugs that reduce it's effectiveness to near nothing and an otherwise much needed buff.
Firstly the known bugs -
Lay On Hands: Other than being used as a once per day healing ability this feat is supposed to also be a touch attack against Undead creatures that works the same way as it's healing component.
Beginning at 2nd level, a paladin with a Charisma score of 12 or higher can heal wounds (her own or those of others) by touch. Each day she can heal a total number of hit points of damage equal to her paladin level times her Charisma bonus. For example, a 7th-level paladin with a 16 Charisma (+3 bonus) can heal 21 points of damage per day.
The same calculation is supposed to be made in determining how much divine damage it deals to Undead foes.
Spells -
Bless Weapon: You empower the touched melee weapon with a +1 piercing damage bonus vs. evil, and a 2d6 divine damage bonus vs. undead. The weapon is also considered to be good-aligned for purposes of damage reduction. You can also target another creature to enchant its equipped melee weapon.
This however is taken directly from the Wikipedia page -
Unlike the spell description the damage against undead is actually magical instead of divine.
This is a powerful enchantment for a melee weapon against undead. Generally the best Paladin spell to use for undead slaying, and can help overcome some damage reductions, demons may have damage reduction except against good-aligned weapons.
It is not worthwhile if the only bonus is +1 damage against evil, which for a level 1 Paladin spell doesn't compare to Magic weapon and especially not Divine Favor.
As shown the damage bonus is actualy magical which does not stack with any other damage type. It should be 2d6 Divine damage Vs undead which furthermore stacks with Holy Sword to be 4d6 Divine damage against Undead.
Holy Sword - This spell allows you to channel holy power into your sword or any other melee weapon you choose. The weapon acts as a +5 holy weapon (+5 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls, extra 2d6 divine damage* against evil opponents), grants Spell Resistance 16 and dispells on hit.
This is what it SHOULD be doing, however the following is taken directly from the wikipedia entry -
Information below about divine damage being the very same as magical damage is not true in version 1.04. In the feedback the game provides there is a physical damage, a magical damage due to holy weapon enchantment, and there is a separate divine damage which is from the spell. There is a bug where the +5 attack bonus does disappear in the normal 6 secs per paladin caster level (which is about half that of the Paladin level), but the extra 2d6 divine vs evil stays till the weapon is unequipped or the game is loaded again. One can rest or travel to other areas and the melee weapons that become holy swords maintain the extra 2d6 divine vs evil. Your whole team could have the extra divine damage added to any equipped melee weapons.
* The list "divine" damage of the spell is misleading. The damage is not divine, it's magic damage instead. This makes a difference when it comes to damage reduction as well as combining effects of weapon damage. For example, combining this spell's effects with that of Bless Weapon results in only +2d6 magical damage being done to evil undead creatures. This contradicts the in-game descriptions. Magical damage types do NOT stack. Example:
Weapon effects:
+2d6 Magical Damage vs. Undead +2d6 Magical Damage vs. Evil +2d6 Magical Damage vs. Chaotic +2 Magical Damage from Adamantine Results vs. a Chaotic Evil Undead oppenant are only +2d6 Magical damage (not the 6d6+2 as expected).
Holy Sword does not dispell onhit. Retrieved from "http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Holy_Sword"
The dispell on hit property is supposed to be the big pay off for the paladin's 'ulitmate' ability however right now it is bugged into uselesness in that it actualy does not dispell at all. The other bug that makes the magical damage stick (It lists as divine but is actualy magical) is really the only thing the class has going for it right now.
Suggested Improvements -
Extra Smiting: The actual DnD description says this gives the character an extra four smites, however in Nwn2 it only gives an extra two. Increase this to four and it will be a whole lot more useful.
The half caster level: In the actual DnD this was never really a problem because there is equipment available that could raise the Paladin's caster level up to full. However there is no such item or item property in Neverwinter Nights 2 and so the Paladin's spells are a joke. Not only are all durations cut in half but so are the effectiveness of spells such as Greater Magic Weapon which caps off at a +2 bonus with twenty levels of Paladin. In hindsight most of the spells in their spellbook would not even be worth implementing because of this. All of the Paladin's strength has been lodged in his spells, however as of right now this amounts to nothing at all. A Holy Sword that lasts for sixty seconds with twenty levels of Paladin and doesnt even dispell is subpar.
Raise their caster level to full to fix this, Ranger's could also use this fix aswell although they do not need it anywhere near as much since they gain very usefull combat abilities - Favoured Enemy, Favoured Power Attack, Bane Of Enemies, Hide In Plain Sight etc.
Detect Evil: The Paladin is supposed to be feared for his ability to detect evil, to look into another man's soul and know whether he is a moral man or not. However right now this staple of the class is nonexistant. There are haks and things out there that add this ability, I know of another server that uses one. The Kaedrin's reworks and fixes or whatever it's called is one.
Prestige Classes: Contrary to standard belief, pre SOZ the Paladin does not have a decent prestige class to go with it at all. The Divine Champion is nothing but a cheap knockoff of the mighty Champion Of Torm. I would suggest the following changes to the Divine Champion to give the Paladin a prestige class.
Remove Smite Infidel and replace it with Smite Evil progression. Or keeping it and adding both would not hurt.
Add Paladin spellcasting progression at a half caster level.
Organisation: While there are several churches of Paladin deities (Torm, Tyr, Helm, Ilmater, Lathander etc) the mainstream of Paladins are supposed to fight alongside their Paladin brothers in arms as apart of a Paladin Order. Right now you have a small group (If any other than my character and Valek Sunborn) affiliated with different churches (Mine was not affiliated with the Church Of Helm actualy) but otherwise are splintered and divided. To this end I would suggest -
The Order Of The Radiant Heart.
forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Order_of_the_Radiant_Heart
If sufficient interest is shown I could write up all the information with rules and regulations. As for a base of operations, it being in a mercantile city such as Baldur's Gate and under jurisdiction of the Flaming Fist would not be such a good idea, instead I would go for a stronghold somewhere along the Sword Coast where the Paladins ride out (Or rather walk or march since there is no Paladin Mount either) to do battle against the evil of the Realms.
Itemisation: I have not seen the new warrior equipment but to give an idea of ideal Paladin equipment it needs to add things such as Strength, Charisma and extra Paladin spellslots. Skills such as concentration, diplomacy, heal and lore even. Bonus feats such as Extra Turning would be nice. Sacred Paladin weapons such as Holy Avengers to be available via a sacred mission would be a godsend.
Firstly the known bugs -
Lay On Hands: Other than being used as a once per day healing ability this feat is supposed to also be a touch attack against Undead creatures that works the same way as it's healing component.
Beginning at 2nd level, a paladin with a Charisma score of 12 or higher can heal wounds (her own or those of others) by touch. Each day she can heal a total number of hit points of damage equal to her paladin level times her Charisma bonus. For example, a 7th-level paladin with a 16 Charisma (+3 bonus) can heal 21 points of damage per day.
The same calculation is supposed to be made in determining how much divine damage it deals to Undead foes.
Spells -
Bless Weapon: You empower the touched melee weapon with a +1 piercing damage bonus vs. evil, and a 2d6 divine damage bonus vs. undead. The weapon is also considered to be good-aligned for purposes of damage reduction. You can also target another creature to enchant its equipped melee weapon.
This however is taken directly from the Wikipedia page -
Unlike the spell description the damage against undead is actually magical instead of divine.
This is a powerful enchantment for a melee weapon against undead. Generally the best Paladin spell to use for undead slaying, and can help overcome some damage reductions, demons may have damage reduction except against good-aligned weapons.
It is not worthwhile if the only bonus is +1 damage against evil, which for a level 1 Paladin spell doesn't compare to Magic weapon and especially not Divine Favor.
As shown the damage bonus is actualy magical which does not stack with any other damage type. It should be 2d6 Divine damage Vs undead which furthermore stacks with Holy Sword to be 4d6 Divine damage against Undead.
Holy Sword - This spell allows you to channel holy power into your sword or any other melee weapon you choose. The weapon acts as a +5 holy weapon (+5 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls, extra 2d6 divine damage* against evil opponents), grants Spell Resistance 16 and dispells on hit.
This is what it SHOULD be doing, however the following is taken directly from the wikipedia entry -
Information below about divine damage being the very same as magical damage is not true in version 1.04. In the feedback the game provides there is a physical damage, a magical damage due to holy weapon enchantment, and there is a separate divine damage which is from the spell. There is a bug where the +5 attack bonus does disappear in the normal 6 secs per paladin caster level (which is about half that of the Paladin level), but the extra 2d6 divine vs evil stays till the weapon is unequipped or the game is loaded again. One can rest or travel to other areas and the melee weapons that become holy swords maintain the extra 2d6 divine vs evil. Your whole team could have the extra divine damage added to any equipped melee weapons.
* The list "divine" damage of the spell is misleading. The damage is not divine, it's magic damage instead. This makes a difference when it comes to damage reduction as well as combining effects of weapon damage. For example, combining this spell's effects with that of Bless Weapon results in only +2d6 magical damage being done to evil undead creatures. This contradicts the in-game descriptions. Magical damage types do NOT stack. Example:
Weapon effects:
+2d6 Magical Damage vs. Undead +2d6 Magical Damage vs. Evil +2d6 Magical Damage vs. Chaotic +2 Magical Damage from Adamantine Results vs. a Chaotic Evil Undead oppenant are only +2d6 Magical damage (not the 6d6+2 as expected).
Holy Sword does not dispell onhit. Retrieved from "http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Holy_Sword"
The dispell on hit property is supposed to be the big pay off for the paladin's 'ulitmate' ability however right now it is bugged into uselesness in that it actualy does not dispell at all. The other bug that makes the magical damage stick (It lists as divine but is actualy magical) is really the only thing the class has going for it right now.
Suggested Improvements -
Extra Smiting: The actual DnD description says this gives the character an extra four smites, however in Nwn2 it only gives an extra two. Increase this to four and it will be a whole lot more useful.
The half caster level: In the actual DnD this was never really a problem because there is equipment available that could raise the Paladin's caster level up to full. However there is no such item or item property in Neverwinter Nights 2 and so the Paladin's spells are a joke. Not only are all durations cut in half but so are the effectiveness of spells such as Greater Magic Weapon which caps off at a +2 bonus with twenty levels of Paladin. In hindsight most of the spells in their spellbook would not even be worth implementing because of this. All of the Paladin's strength has been lodged in his spells, however as of right now this amounts to nothing at all. A Holy Sword that lasts for sixty seconds with twenty levels of Paladin and doesnt even dispell is subpar.
Raise their caster level to full to fix this, Ranger's could also use this fix aswell although they do not need it anywhere near as much since they gain very usefull combat abilities - Favoured Enemy, Favoured Power Attack, Bane Of Enemies, Hide In Plain Sight etc.
Detect Evil: The Paladin is supposed to be feared for his ability to detect evil, to look into another man's soul and know whether he is a moral man or not. However right now this staple of the class is nonexistant. There are haks and things out there that add this ability, I know of another server that uses one. The Kaedrin's reworks and fixes or whatever it's called is one.
Prestige Classes: Contrary to standard belief, pre SOZ the Paladin does not have a decent prestige class to go with it at all. The Divine Champion is nothing but a cheap knockoff of the mighty Champion Of Torm. I would suggest the following changes to the Divine Champion to give the Paladin a prestige class.
Remove Smite Infidel and replace it with Smite Evil progression. Or keeping it and adding both would not hurt.
Add Paladin spellcasting progression at a half caster level.
Organisation: While there are several churches of Paladin deities (Torm, Tyr, Helm, Ilmater, Lathander etc) the mainstream of Paladins are supposed to fight alongside their Paladin brothers in arms as apart of a Paladin Order. Right now you have a small group (If any other than my character and Valek Sunborn) affiliated with different churches (Mine was not affiliated with the Church Of Helm actualy) but otherwise are splintered and divided. To this end I would suggest -
The Order Of The Radiant Heart.
forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Order_of_the_Radiant_Heart
If sufficient interest is shown I could write up all the information with rules and regulations. As for a base of operations, it being in a mercantile city such as Baldur's Gate and under jurisdiction of the Flaming Fist would not be such a good idea, instead I would go for a stronghold somewhere along the Sword Coast where the Paladins ride out (Or rather walk or march since there is no Paladin Mount either) to do battle against the evil of the Realms.
Itemisation: I have not seen the new warrior equipment but to give an idea of ideal Paladin equipment it needs to add things such as Strength, Charisma and extra Paladin spellslots. Skills such as concentration, diplomacy, heal and lore even. Bonus feats such as Extra Turning would be nice. Sacred Paladin weapons such as Holy Avengers to be available via a sacred mission would be a godsend.
