Would the server be improved with a RP rule?

[adzling]

residentbalkor your points are so on the money i wish i had said them.

most pertinent imho:
"When a person plays an exotic race character without the boundries of "This is how the race behaves" you aren't actually playing the exotic race, you just look like it."

[residentbalkor]

And then there are things like racism; it's not up to the player of an unusual race to introduce racism, it's up to the humans and elves to do that. If there is too much acceptance of tieflings or whatever, then encourage the 'normals' to be more racist instead of placing restrictions on the unusual races.

That won't happen if the exotic races outnumber the standard races ...
Hence why limitations and applications for exotic races are " 'ze way! "

Well, no. It's 4 out of 20 + 40.000 (approximate population of Baldur's Gate), which is very little indeed. We all play extraordinary individuals, even the humans and elves among us; it's the NPC's that are "normal". All PC's are rare, including the genasi.

We both know interactions with the NPC population cannot account for this, whilst Bladur's Gate is a very much alive city - in real gameplay terms and player roleplay we only manage to see that in either DM events, or player to player interaction - the latter being goverened by exotic races makes the majority of our interactions with said races less rare.

As for Warlocks - at the very least we're talking about Chaotic here, in a Lawful city like Baldur's Gate a Chaotic Good character will be viewed upon as a renegade, wrongdoing son of a gun - yadda yadda... Conflict with law, conflict with rules... You know the drill.

That said, Warlocks are still "Evil" by the general rule - the Eldritch power they possess is described as dark magic - Basiclly, that'd be like a good mage raising an army of undead - Can he do it? Sure, is it againts his morales as a good person who wields the arcane? Yes.

Hellfire Warlocks? Well, Hellfire is evil, so yes, evil.

[adzling]

imho all these "rationalizations" about how the player base is only 0.01% (or something) of the sword coast population and hence can be any race are a little whacked.

why?

i would posit that the makeup of the races represented as adventurers would be similar to the local makeup of races.
if the sword coast is 80% human than then it stands to reason that the adventurer population would be 80% human (or at least still remain the large majority).
If there is only 0.05% earth genasi population on the sword coast than the adventurer makeup by race would be similar, perhaps skewing slightly due to the genasi' higher chance to become an adventurer (not that this is represented anywhere in lore afaik) so that a full 1% of the adventurer population is genasi.

this would be a far more reasonable way to look at things if you wanted to do it logically.

however i understand that the server isn't "hardcore" so we'll just have to live with it and learn to get along.

i'm happy provided people actually RP their race and don't end up with "shallow gnomes".

[hnefi]

Jan 27, 2009 10:13:43 GMT -5 residentbalkor said:

And then there are things like racism; it's not up to the player of an unusual race to introduce racism, it's up to the humans and elves to do that. If there is too much acceptance of tieflings or whatever, then encourage the 'normals' to be more racist instead of placing restrictions on the unusual races.

That won't happen if the exotic races outnumber the standard races ...
Hence why limitations and applications for exotic races are 'ze way!

Well, I disagree. Even on TFR, where RP was light and exotic races extremely common, racism worked pretty well - especially against half-drow. The way to create racism is not to restrict ECL races, because that won't affect racism either way. Instead, DM-controlled NPC's, edicts put forth by the duke or the Flaming Fist, and the actions of high-level characters that already exist is enough to create this behaviour among the players. If there are signs on some doors/shops saying "thieflings not welcome" and such, and if Flaming Fist guards start questioning genasi for no reason other than being genasi - as well as their human companions for being in their company - players will follow suit.

We both know interactions with the NPC population cannot account for this, whilst Bladur's Gate is a very much alive city - in real gameplay terms and player roleplay we only manage to see that in either DM events, or player to player interaction - the latter being goverened by exotic races makes the majority of our interactions with said races less rare.

So what? As I said, we are all playing extraordinary characters. There's probably not a single one of us who plays a "normal" human, so what does it matter if some are slightly less normal than others?

Sure, some races (and classes) have a lot of lore available to the players. But planetouched, for example, are still basically humans with a slight trace of planar blood in them, and there isn't much lore to lean on. Why then is it so wrong to have these characters be played pretty much as humans with sparkly hair? That is, after all, what they are.

As for Warlocks - at the very least we're talking about Chaotic here, in a Lawful city like Baldur's Gate a Chaotic Good character will be viewed upon as a renegade, wrongdoing son of a gun - yadda yadda... Conflict with law, conflict with rules... You know the drill.

CG characters are still do-gooders. They may certainly come in conflict with the Fist and other LG characters/organizations, but it doesn't change the fact they are basically trying to do what they consider is right. There is nothing wrong with a CG warlock, because there are several ways a character can gain warlock powers without doing anything evil, which is why I object to people complaining about CG 'locks.

That said, Warlocks are still Evil by the general rule - the Eldritch power they possess is described as dark magic - Basiclly, that'd be like a good mage raising an army of undead - Can he do it? Sure, is it againts his morales as a good person who wields the arcane? Yes.

That's not my understanding. Eldritch power can be evil in origin, but it doesn't have to be. Fey pacts in particular are not. Necromancy, on the other hand, is fuelled by negative energy which will influence and corrupt the user - or so I'm told, anyway. Eldritch powers don't have that particular trait, as far as I'm aware. I don't have any sources to back these statements up; it's just what I've been told by veteran DnD players.

Hellfire Warlocks? Well, Hellfire is evil, so yes, evil.

There aren't any hellfire 'locks on the server, so it's a moot point for the time being. If Mephistopheles is the only source for hellfire, I'm inclined to agree with you; but then, the logical restriction for a hellfire warlock would be LN/LE/NE, not LE/NE/CE. But that's all details.

[residentbalkor]

Well, I disagree. Even on TFR, where RP was light and exotic races extremely common, racism worked pretty well - especially against half-drow. The way to create racism is not to restrict ECL races, because that won't affect racism either way. Instead, DM-controlled NPC's, edicts put forth by the duke or the Flaming Fist, and the actions of high-level characters that already exist is enough to create this behaviour among the players. If there are signs on some doors/shops saying "thieflings not welcome" and such, and if Flaming Fist guards start questioning genasi for no reason other than being genasi - as well as their human companions for being in their company - players will follow suit.

I disagree as well, by restricting ECL races you make sure only people who know what they're playing get to play them - Hence, the possibility of a player encountering what we call an "Fair Drow" or a "Shallow Gnome" decreases, by, well - effectively 99%.
This in turn produces less chances to avoid racism, and in turn makes sure that not only the PC enteracting with the ECL race is racist, but that the ECL race player expects the racism.

As for High Level characters - they are the bane of racism sadly, it would appear that the NWN phenomena of bench-sitting high level drows who have "proven themselves" to everyone excists even in the hardcore-st of hardcore settings... That's how it is, NWN allows it.
But at least the restriction is there to prevent the low ranks and new players/rpers from doing that.

So what? As I said, we are all playing extraordinary characters. There's probably not a single one of us who plays a "normal" human, so what does it matter if some are slightly less normal than others?

No no no and again no - this is where you (And many others, excuse me) are very wrong - Your fresh out of the bucket character is no stronger than a farmer, no more famous than a..er.. Something not famous and so forth so forth.

Personal stories? Past experiences? They all pale in comparison to the great deeds of epic heroes and yadda yadda - Why do you think we should be treated different until we prove ourselves? That said, by rolling a Tiefling or a Gensai, or even a Drow - you already apply a template to your character that involves thrill.

Yeah but it's a cheap template, because no one knows how far that character is going to go - nor has he done anything real to deserve being treated like a special person.

We are not born special.

Sure, some races (and classes) have a lot of lore available to the players. But planetouched, for example, are still basically humans with a slight trace of planar blood in them, and there isn't much lore to lean on. Why then is it so wrong to have these characters be played pretty much as humans with sparkly hair? That is, after all, what they are.

Because, that sparkly hair, tail, wings, red eyes, fangs or whatever demonic trait they might have will make them behave like the god-almighty teen icons of the sword coast.
Countless of times have I seen a bad RPer play a tiefling as if he was gods gift to women - but in terms of actual gameplay, stats and so forth? - Err.. We're talking a frail rogue with about 8 charisma thanks to his powerbuild... So why on earth is he behaving like a rock star? Oh right, because his father was the devil.

So I ask you this - if you plan on playing a human in all regards - why do you need sparkly hair or demonic heritage if you're not going to center your story, behavior and traits around it?

That's like saying "Hey, I am Alfred the orc, I am quite intelligent - unlike the rest of my kin.. Let us be friends and roast game by the fire!"... Compared to "Durr.. Me Alfred, kill deer, roast fire! blaargh!"...

How is being an Orc affecting Alfreds roleplay in scenario 1? It's not really doing much is it? He only looks like an Orc, but he behaves like a half-orc, why not be a half-orc then?

CG characters are still do-gooders. They may certainly come in conflict with the Fist and other LG characters/organizations, but it doesn't change the fact they are basically trying to do what they consider is right. There is nothing wrong with a CG warlock, because there are several ways a character can gain warlock powers without doing anything evil, which is why I object to people complaining about CG 'locks.

Chaotic Good comes in conflict with Lawful - In a country where law is the word a Lawful Evil character will be more respected and more liked than a Chaotic Good character - But that said, how many of these CG Warlocks do you see playing the CG role?

That's not my understanding. Eldritch power can be evil in origin, but it doesn't have to be. Fey pacts in particular are not. Necromancy, on the other hand, is fuelled by negative energy which will influence and corrupt the user - or so I'm told, anyway. Eldritch powers don't have that particular trait, as far as I'm aware. I don't have any sources to back these statements up; it's just what I've been told by veteran DnD players.

Lets just have a look at the arsenal of the Warlock:
Fiendish Resilience, Dark Foresight, Dark One's Own Luck, Devil's Sight, Dread Seizure, Tenacious Plague, The Dead Walk.

Do any of these suggest a good personality?

[meldor]

Seriously why dont you guys log on the game and come RP.. all these complain are getting old by now.. the 3 same persons debating about deep gnomes we have heard you point but the FACT is that there are not a single person in the Underdark.. so maybe if you guys would log on we could have some interest in RP in the UD but being alone make us want to go play with peoples..

This said

Log on and play the game instead of chating day longs.. this isn't MIRC but a game.

[DEV Jlf2n]

It was a good debate while it lasted but its starting to turn a tad ugly. In closing this rule probably won't ever see the light of day. It's just not what we are trying to achieve.