itemization: suggestions for balance

[davidb]

As it has been said that crafting is being worked on, I think itemization should be planned in advance so it contributes to balance between classes. Some ideas.

a) Class restriction is good, but not good enough.

The new +3 items can be used by Figthers of any level, they should be limited to FIG lvl 12, i.e., so characters that just make a couple levels of a class don't get the ability of accessing to all their items. New weapons and armors should have this limit too if they go above +3. Not sure if this can be done with the toolset, though. A script may be required...

b) Tanking is a caster business

The AC and Damage reduction that can be achieved by spells is simply too good compared to a +3 Platemail that costs a fortune. Not to mention that many casters already can wear good +2 armors, like clerics, druids and warlocks.

So maybe we could even things a bit with some self-buffing ability through items that have daily uses. Like a stoneskin 1/day at level 12, for example, or some AC buffs. Not trying to turn them into casters, so no utility spells, no damage, just some protection.

c) Healing.

Melees should access some cheap healing kits at low-to-mid levels, maybe as a result of a quest that makes them run from one town to another or something like that. A quest they can do again when needed, of course.

[DM mithari]

There are a few key offenders among spells that cause the imbalance.

- Greater Magic Weapon/Vestment.
I believe that basic +x weapons and armor must be fairly easy to get access to once you're of a high enough level to use them and rich enough to acquire them.
This might go slightly against the lower magic flavor that seems to be the intent, but hear me out.
The current +3 armor at Thunderhammer is basically named in such a way that it implies they're just masterfully crafted, not actually enchanted. I love that flavor and I think it's something that can and should be expanded upon in the name of game balance.
You keep the flavor of low magic, without crippling those that need magic the most to be effective.

Optionally you could force your cleric friends to cast those buffs they can on YOU as well.

- The six stat buff spells basically mean that casters barely suffer from lesser access to +stat items. +4 stat items properly class restricted and exempt from UMDing (if at all possible) is a necessity to deal with it. Like it or not, stat boosters are a central element to D&D balance.

- Greater/Superior Resistance are outright unfair as they actually stack with magic items. I don't know what to do about it, since saving throws is something you must be careful of if you want to be able to use spellcasting monsters as challenging opponents. If all they can do is hide behind a massive wall of buffs and cast spells with little to no effect, they just make for a very boring fight.
I'm thinking properly class restricting of +3 to +5 saving throw items is the best one can ask for and not upset a DMs ability to challenge the players.

- The very existence of Premonition and to a lesser extent Greater Stoneskin. PnP only has Stoneskin, which has a cost in gold each time to cast, both for good reason.
Without them, monster damage doesn't have to be extremely high to be a challenge to casters (but quickly decimate a warrior), and one can reduce swingyness with x3 crit weapons.
Was it up to me, those two spells would just be kicked out entirely, but I realize that's probably not an option.

I remember that in NWN level requirements were automatically added by the game as you increased the magic powers on an item. Is that still so, or can you assign it on your own? If you can, it should be easy to design a host of special items, handed out only as event rewards that are more powerful than commonly accessible ones, yet only given to those of classes that actually need some help.

Lastly, there's a host of special materials to make items out of. While their uses are fairly narrow in standard D&D, but in the interest of game balance one could arbitrarily expand them a little, and even "invent" some of your own, even if the game won't let you say that in the Material line.
Let them add minor energy resistances, damage reduction (adamantine is meant to do this with armor as it is, for instance), special save bonuses or other such things, and flavor it in such a way that it's due to the material rather than magic.

Forging techniques can also be used for flavor.
For instance, an ancient blade discovered in a ruin of Netheril (or Imaskar or Illefarn or what have you) could be forged from ordinary steel, but with long-forgotten techniques and by virtue of that give special similar special attributes. From what I understand, DMs can alter an item's description on the fly in-game and with that add a whole lot of depth even to generic items created for the module.

Even if two items have the same stats, they can get a vastly different feel if one +5 Greatsword if Fiery Doom is described as "Enchanted and forged by the Illefarn, combining elven magics and dwarven craft into a powerful union...", while another is "Tempered in Hellfire by the mages of Netheril to outfit their greatest martial champions...", and yet a third is completely non-magical, instead being the very pinnacle of craftsmanship from a certain dwarven clan or whatever.

[DEV Jlf2n]

These are great points, and I have written a few ideas down from them. Balance is something we will continue to work on as time goes by. NWN and NWN2 is great as an RPG, but not so much as a MMO. We will continue to strive though to help bring in the balance.

[luna]

mithari, what do you want done with the spells?

Make them weaker? Say magic vestment caps at +3 or +4 instead of +5.
Removal them completely?

[Raist]

Dec 10, 2008 12:50:25 GMT -5 @luna said:

mithari, what do you want done with the spells?

Make them weaker? Say magic vestment caps at +3 or +4 instead of +5.
Removal them completely?

As far as i can understand, it is not a matter of altering those spells, but to meet them in form of items.

In all fairness a +5 armor and +5 enchantment to a weapon isn't THAT powerfull at all. It's when the keen, massive crits, elemental dmg, on hit effects come into play that things get "high magic"

[luna]

I think thats a terrible idea to say because a cleric and wizard can get +5 or +6 armor class via spell, then eveyrone should be allowed access to +5 armor (or +5 weapons).

All you do there is slant the world toward being even more Epic.

Now I don't think they should be dis-allowed either, but they should be very hard to attain. Perhaps by crafting or super rare loot drop.

But not go down to the local shop and stock up on +5 gear.

[DM mithari]

Raist has it about right. This isn't PnP; just removing things willy-nilly is probably not a good option (Except for Greater Stoneskin and Premonition *cough*). Matching the spells with basic items is probably as good as one can do, and as I've mentioned it can be done without necessarily making it feel more high magic for it (mostly; save bonuses are a little shakier).

Of course it's an option to reduce the caps on spells to match the max enhancements you want to have on equipment too. What I would want is for them to be equal in bonus, balanced by that the spell can be cast on others, but a permanent item will always be there and cannot just be dispelled.

By necessity, due to how the game is designed, high magic will have to come the way Raist says, or magic using classes just become even more relatively powerful.

I should say that I like the diversity of various items that are in the module already though; they're definitely in the right direction, but the attack/damage/armor AC/shield AC/save bonuses are so fundamental to the warrior classes that there's no way to reduce them without unduly crippling the classes.
(I rarely actually play them, but I think it's wrong that they can be substituted fully by just casting a few spells).

On second thought, stat boosters are a little different, since +4 to a casting stat from a spell won't give you the full benefit from having it from an item, so those can probably be kept at +2 and the game won't be noticeably worse off for it. Their low level and touch means they're easily shared with your warrior friends anyway.

After that remains only the FAR worst offenders, like Divine Power, which I feel have no right to even exist. ;D

[DM Sir Carnifex]

I feel adding a bunch of items to make melee classes more like casters kind of ruins the feel of them. Personally, I like them to be what they are supposed to be: big powerful tanks who can hit and be hit. If they take damage because they don't have all the fancy spells, then so be it.

Now, what I would be in favor of is making many of the spells less potent. In this way we encourage balance among the classes without making it easier for anyone to reach epic. Balance without power should be the motto.

[DM mithari]

But the problem is that with an irritating buff routine, a cleric hits and gets hit at least as well as any warrior...

[Raist]

I agree with mithari, obviously.

My main point is, that there is a difference between how nwn//nwn2 works and how pnp works.
In nwn/nwn2 The +'s isn't epic in power, all it really does is add a little ekstra to AC, AB and DMG. "longsword +5" -sounds- epic, but in all fairness its nessescary in the hands of a lv 20 fighter.. it only adds +5 ab and +5 flat physical dmg on top of the 1-8 base dmg it allready does. But more important it will help fighters overcome the damage reduction of spells like greater stonekin and premonition !

Another thing i miss seeing available for the fighter classes, are weapon of various metals to overcome other kinds of damage reductions.

[larkin]

Oh well, for the start it would be more than enogh to make MOST of the creatures vulnerable to typical fighter feats: Why am I able to disarm an epic cleric (PC) when it does not work on the minotaurs, skeletons, goblins, etc. (NPCs) ?

I could understand that the minos cannot be disarmed for reasons of grinding for gold. But that point is void with 34 AC, so it does not really matter. (Plus they should have a pretty good SR then, too)

Just my 2 cents

[davidb]

Dec 10, 2008 14:17:20 GMT -5 DM Sir Carnifex said:

I feel adding a bunch of items to make melee classes more like casters kind of ruins the feel of them. Personally, I like them to be what they are supposed to be: big powerful tanks who can hit and be hit. If they take damage because they don't have all the fancy spells, then so be it.

Now, what I would be in favor of is making many of the spells less potent. In this way we encourage balance among the classes without making it easier for anyone to reach epic. Balance without power should be the motto.

Sircarnifex, I feel exactly like you, a figther is suposed to be a simple, straightforward character to play. However, as plan B is impossible to attain (people get angry when you nerf something), you should give them some extras.

Thanks everyone for the insight and interesting ideas. We agree with the overall problem, in a PnP your average cleric would never have 11 buffs on him, yet here it's pretty common. Quick buffs like divine might are just a click away, so usually you have them on you too, as you're rarely surprised here, you choose the when and how, and in that case spellcasters well-prepared have a lot to say about things.

So we all know spellcasting is more powerful than in a PnP game... well, my 2 characters are spellcasters, but I am all for nerfing a little spellcasting.

How? well, there are ways to make magic less powerful without modifying spells one by one. Rest time is currently 5 hours. Make it something like this:

lvl 1-4 4 hours
lvl 5-8 5 hours
lvl 9-12 6 hours
lvl 13-16 7 hours
lvl 17-20 8 hours
lvl 21+ 9 hours

Another way is, making dispel very common whenever you encounter spellcaster monsters. Make them cast dispel magic on casters very often. Add Minotaur Shamans, that dispel magic, then hold person, let's see how easy is the grind then.

Finally, something that is already being done, but partially. No rest in dungeons. Then make the truly interesting monsters and treasures to be very deep inside dungeons, and you have it: a spellcaster that does too many spells will run out of juice for the though battles, while melees, by using a little healing kits, are fresh as ever.

So a combination of the above should help. Maybe certain specific spell nerfs could be done, like magic vestment, premonition, etc. but I fell it's too much work and people will get mad. Make +5 equipment available from quests and raids, or even +6!

[DM mithari]

Dec 10, 2008 16:19:41 GMT -5 davidb said:

Another way is, making dispel very common whenever you encounter spellcaster monsters. Make them cast dispel magic on casters very often. Add Minotaur Shamans, that dispel magic, then hold person, let's see how easy is the grind then.

This. A lot of dispels and Spell Breach spells will not only serve to take casters down a few notches, but I think it's also very much expected by game design. It will also make people think twice about just taking 20 spellcaster class levels then go for something else entirely since a single dispel could very easily ruin your day of Buffed To Being the Destroyer of Worlds.

A problem here, however, is that practically all dispels cap out at +20 for caster level on the dispel check (for those unfamiliar with it, the dispel check is d20 + caster level vs. DC 11 + caster level of the spell to be dispelled).
The Wall of (Greater) Dispel Magic spells do not directly mention a cap, but it's likely that they are regardless.
In epic content, this practically means that you are between unlikely to completely unable to dispel a full caster's magic.

I'm at a complete loss as to how to solve that at those high levels.

[davidb]

mithari, if both caster levels cap at 20, then there's always a 50% of dispels on epic vs epic. That's about right for me.

Dispelling, increased rest time, itemization, plus maybe some XP bonuses.

Dec 10, 2008 16:29:31 GMT -5 DM mithari said:

Dec 10, 2008 16:19:41 GMT -5 davidb said:

Another way is, making dispel very common whenever you encounter spellcaster monsters. Make them cast dispel magic on casters very often. Add Minotaur Shamans, that dispel magic, then hold person, let's see how easy is the grind then.

This. A lot of dispels and Spell Breach spells will not only serve to take casters down a few notches, but I think it's also very much expected by game design. It will also make people think twice about just taking 20 spellcaster class levels then go for something else entirely since a single dispel could very easily ruin your day of Buffed To Being the Destroyer of Worlds.

A problem here, however, is that practically all dispels cap out at +20 for caster level on the dispel check (for those unfamiliar with it, the dispel check is d20 + caster level vs. DC 11 + caster level of the spell to be dispelled).
The Wall of (Greater) Dispel Magic spells do not directly mention a cap, but it's likely that they are regardless.
In epic content, this practically means that you are between unlikely to completely unable to dispel a full caster's magic.

I'm at a complete loss as to how to solve that at those high levels.

[DM mithari]

But your own caster level keeps growing into epic, that's the issue that can arise. The spells just don't allow you to take the full level into account. I agree 50/50 would be fair, but that's not what it becomes if you are both level 30. Or any level of 21 and up for that matter.