ovarf
Active Member
Posts: 197
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Post by ovarf on Jan 21, 2009 10:51:06 GMT -5
In a world where magic and gold are hard to come by Disarm seems a bit overpowered.
I know at lest one person that lost their weapon to this. I can only assume that HIPS types are lurking around out there scooping up free magic items.
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Post by DM Sir Carnifex on Jan 21, 2009 12:48:16 GMT -5
In a world where magic and gold are hard to come by Disarm seems a bit overpowered. I know at lest one person that lost their weapon to this. I can only assume that HIPS types are lurking around out there scooping up free magic items. Perhaps, but what is more likely is the person was killed by the giant or had to flee the area after which the clean up script would eat the item if nobody else was there. Sadly, the cleanup script is necessary because so many people refuse to pick up the loot bags that are left behind. |
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ovarf
Active Member
Posts: 197
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Post by ovarf on Jan 21, 2009 13:56:32 GMT -5
is there any way to make disarm drop the item into your inventory instead?
Or possibly an item that makes you immune to disarm like the weapon lock gantlets from 3.5
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Post by rureadysetgo on Jan 23, 2009 19:00:10 GMT -5
In a world where magic and gold are hard to come by Disarm seems a bit overpowered. I know at lest one person that lost their weapon to this. I can only assume that HIPS types are lurking around out there scooping up free magic items. I have personally lost weapons after being killed due to disarm by a giant. It comes with the territory. Any decent fighter has more than one weapon, can defeat the giant, and pick up what was lost. If you can't beat the giant, you're out the weapon's cost...go buy a new one, a better one, and some better armor while you're at it. As for PC's with HIPS...I believe the only class allowed on this server with HIPS is Assassin, which they get at level 10. Shadowdancers, as I remember, are not allowed here, most likely, because they get HIPS so fast that it "unbalances" the game (which is crap, but so be it). So unless there are a BUNCH of high level assassins on the server, you won't need to worry about roaming HIPS characters waiting for a PC to be disarmed. While we're on the subject of "banning" things, lets' ban Sleight of Hand. It allows pick pocketing and that unbalances the game for people with low or no Spot skill, which is basically all but two or three classes. Rogues can get gold, weapons, and other items they didn't earn. And let's ban mind affecting spells, because that unbalances the game for PC's with low or no will save. A caster can then unload evocation spells on a stunned fighter without fear of retribution. And let's ban Eldritch Chain because that allows Warlocks to fight more than one person per round with one spell... We can go on and on about how the game is "unbalanced", but the truth is, the game is just fine. What's unbalanced is people's familiarity with the strategies for their classes. It's nice to be an RP server, but one of the aspects of good RP is that the PC knows their strengths and weaknesses. We wouldn't expect a good website to be developed by a construction worker, nor a good building to be erected by a computer scientist. Likewise, saying a skill is not equitable, when all you really need to do to stop it is "improve your AC" is ill-concieved. It's not the game that's weak...it's the character. Go improve the character. Or stop provoking creatures that can disarm you, mind affect you, pick your pocket...etc. These are things a properly RP'ed PC would learn over time and resolve. I now know that Hill Giants can disarm me, are difficult or impossible to disarm themselves (now THAT is the unequitable part), and have a weapon that they use Improved Power Attack and get to deliver about 25 HP damage on average. There are also other thigns I haven't learned yet, like what the minimum roll is for me to hit a giant, and for the giant to hit me. Once I learn that, I can prepare for it. I know this...I need to improve my AC to face hill giants, I just don't know how much. In RP form, Shelin knows that Hill Giants hit hard, hit fast, fight with reckless abandon, can disarm, have a pretty good grip on their clubs which are difficult to break because the clubs are so huge...and the giants are pretty good at combat. He must find and buy a better shield (he already has the best armor he can find) as well as better weapons to overcome the giant's thick hide. RP and strategy (which RP-ers love to accuse as PG) are NOT exclusive. The fact that players want DM's to weaken things so they can "win" means the players have no clue what class they picked, how to fully use it, and want nothing more than to have the DM give up experience for being in a chat room (which is now done without a DM even being present...THAT is unequitable). |
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Post by rureadysetgo on Jan 23, 2009 19:16:16 GMT -5
is there any way to make disarm drop the item into your inventory instead? Or possibly an item that makes you immune to disarm like the weapon lock gantlets from 3.5 The short answer here is yes. The Toolset provides a global constant called "SCRIPT_TRIGGER_ON_DISARM", although I am not certain how to use it. Let's create an item called Weapon Lock Gauntlets, with a tag "glv_wpn_lk". The server would now need a script "glv_wpn_lk_oh" (an OnHit script) which would call the function that takes as an argument "SCRIPT_TRIGGER_ON_DISARM". The script that is triggered has the following algorithm: void OnDisarm(object oPC) begin - get the last weapon oPC equipped - if not found, get nearest placeable object on ground - if that is a weapon, assume this is the weapon that was disarmed from oPC - keep searching until such a weapon is found - copy that weapon back into oPC's inventory - destroy the weapon on the ground - force oPC to equip the copied weapon end Main Objection: Some third PC with HIPS is waiting and takes the weapon, or the person disarming the weapon takes the disarmed weapon. Answer: The script will execute so fast that this will not be possible. Main problems: 1. finding the script that takes "SCRIPT_TRIGGER_ON_DISARM" as a parameter. 2. determining if SCRIPT_TRIGGER_ON_DISARM is a trigger that works as I've implied, or if it temporarily gives the disarm feat to a creature that wouldn't have it. Or, instead of having DM's and scripters do all this...try improving your AC... |
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Post by DM Sir Carnifex on Jan 23, 2009 19:19:14 GMT -5
As for PC's with HIPS...I believe the only class allowed on this server with HIPS is Assassin, which they get at level 10. Shadowdancers, as I remember, are not allowed here, most likely, because they get HIPS so fast that it "unbalances" the game (which is crap, but so be it). So unless there are a BUNCH of high level assassins on the server, you won't need to worry about roaming HIPS characters waiting for a PC to be disarmed. Nowhere has it been stated that SD has been banned. I don't know where you get this idea, but it's completely false. It is true that players are expected to have at least three levels of any class they take by the time they reach level twenty, but that in no way inhibits taking one level of SD up until level 18. Also, rangers gain HIPS. Also, please not that since this is an RP server (Role-Play) and not an action server, complaints that people get XP for role-playing (the RP XP script) are useless. The XP gained for this is still very little compared to what can be had for grinding. I know you probably said this because you seem to be the action type (I know you have run by me without a word on so many occasions). Nobody is objecting that you choose to play in that manner (we don't force RP), so therefore you shouldn't make negative remarks about the new script, especially considering what this server is supposed to be. |
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Jiszo
Senior Member
Posts: 449
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Post by Jiszo on Jan 23, 2009 19:26:16 GMT -5
As for PC's with HIPS...I believe the only class allowed on this server with HIPS is Assassin, which they get at level 10. Shadowdancers, as I remember, are not allowed here, most likely, because they get HIPS so fast that it "unbalances" the game (which is crap, but so be it). So unless there are a BUNCH of high level assassins on the server, you won't need to worry about roaming HIPS characters waiting for a PC to be disarmed. Nowhere has it been stated that SD has been banned. I don't know where you get this idea, but it's completely false. It is true that players are expected to have at least three levels of any class they take by the time they reach level twenty, but that in no way inhibits taking one level of SD up until level 18. Also, rangers gain HIPS. Also, please not that since this is an RP server (Role-Play) and not an action server, complaints that people get XP for role-playing (the RP XP script) are useless. The XP gained for this is still very little compared to what can be had for grinding. I know you probably said this because you seem to be the action type (I know you have run by me without a word on so many occasions). Nobody is objecting that you choose to play in that manner (we don't force RP), so therefore you shouldn't make negative remarks about the new script, especially considering what this server is supposed to be. Well said, I agree. At high lvl's its the only way to really gain xp. I didn't used to care for much rp but after trying it for a bit I grew quit fond of it. Good rp beats grinding any day in my book. |
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Post by rureadysetgo on Jan 23, 2009 19:46:29 GMT -5
Nowhere has it been stated that SD has been banned. I don't know where you get this idea, but it's completely false. It is true that players are expected to have at least three levels of any class they take by the time they reach level twenty, but that in no way inhibits taking one level of SD up until level 18. Also, rangers gain HIPS. Also, please not that since this is an RP server (Role-Play) and not an action server, complaints that people get XP for role-playing (the RP XP script) are useless. The XP gained for this is still very little compared to what can be had for grinding. I know you probably said this because you seem to be the action type (I know you have run by me without a word on so many occasions). Nobody is objecting that you choose to play in that manner (we don't force RP), so therefore you shouldn't make negative remarks about the new script, especially considering what this server is supposed to be. Okay, first, I'm not trying to start an arguement or flame war. 1. I no longer role play on this server as a result of DM threats based on the incident Ovart refers to. 2. I'm sorry I misread the rule. I've come to expect that a server which bans RDD also bans SD. I guess I just skipped the rest of the paragraph or something. My experience comes with playing on other RP servers that ban RDD. Roaming SD's with HIPS waiting for weapons to hit the ground from disarm seems implausible when the same SD would and could pick pocket more easily. Furthermore, the SD would need to worry about making multiple Spot attempts by both the PC (which will fail) and the monster (which the Giants and Hags will not fail). Therefore, the SD would need to be able to battle the monster just for the sake of trying to steal a disarmed weapon that could have been pick-pocketed earlier. Or worse, the SD could disarm the PC, use HIPS, pick up the weapon and leave. I am not disrespecting RP players. I consider myself one (at least until a couple days ago). My point is: knowing class strategy is not mutually exclusive to good RP, and DM's (such as yourself) shouldn't be forced to weaken monsters that PC's can learn how to fight. ;D Does that help? |
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Post by luna on Jan 23, 2009 20:00:18 GMT -5
In a world where magic and gold are hard to come by Disarm seems a bit overpowered. I know at lest one person that lost their weapon to this. I can only assume that HIPS types are lurking around out there scooping up free magic items. I think that disarm problem is being worked on so it goes back into your inventory instead. |
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Post by DM cort on Jan 23, 2009 20:17:25 GMT -5
I thought it was odd the other day, I was fighting giants, and had one spawn into my fight. I knew I had to run, so clicked my staff that was lying on the ground, watched my mage pick it up and ran like the wind. The problem is after I zoned.... no staff! I didn't kill the giants, but I thought I had at least picked up my mage staff.
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Post by DM Sir Carnifex on Jan 23, 2009 20:40:47 GMT -5
1. I no longer role play on this server as a result of DM threats based on the incident Ovart refers to. I can't imagine any of our DMs making a threat about RP unless there was something else involved. Bad RP is bad RP, but nobody would threaten for it. We'd just make fun of you. ;D My point is: knowing class strategy is not mutually exclusive to good RP, and DM's (such as yourself) shouldn't be forced to weaken monsters that PC's can learn how to fight.? I don't weaken monsters. I make them harder. ;D |
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Post by Zealote on Jan 24, 2009 0:39:04 GMT -5
rureadysetgo, you're really fast on your comments mate, but a bit misinformed.
1- As SirC said, SD is not banned.
2- You cant pickpocket weapons due to the weight restrictions. At most you can get potions, arrows, scrolls and gold.
3- I cant believe a DM made a threat to you. I know all the DMs here and they are all very polite and respectful. But I cant say the same about all players. Perhaps if you tell your story things could be clarified.
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ovarf
Active Member
Posts: 197
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Post by ovarf on Jan 26, 2009 13:00:53 GMT -5
few points
A) Talking about NPC combat interaction dealing with disarm. I thought that was fairly clear in the subject line Giants and Disarm.
B) Disarm is AB vs AB with modifiers. AC dose not factor in at all so more AC dose Not defend against disarm.
C) i have no issue losing or having to run from a hard fight. I do not believe the Developers had in mind that if you fought a giant you could loss your weapon permanently so i thought i would point that out.
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Post by stinkymcgirk on Feb 18, 2009 17:53:52 GMT -5
Disarm is actually bugged in the engine. You do not need to make an attack roll at all. As previously stated, the way the game does it at the moment is just AB vs. AB + size modifier (Enlarge Person does NOT factor in). The manual states that it is supposed to be BASE attack bonus vs. BASE attack bonus. In this sense, disarm is supposed to be the great melee equalizer between fighter classes and cleric classes, fighter classes and high strength mobs, etc. Ironically, it accomplishes the opposite.
Because they are the closest solutions to the tabletop game, I think the best course of action is to make locked gauntlets available. It's always a good idea in a multiplayer game such as this to put a script that places the object in the owner's inventory as well.
Besides that, I feel like the main issues I have with disarm are the base issues of its check being done wrong. Since you use haks anyway, here, wouldn't it make sense to fix the check to compare BASE ATTACK BONUS vs. BASE ATTACK BONUS with weapon modifiers instead of just AB vs. AB? That would give the fighter a better check vs. Hill Giants, so it would happen less (as it should), and that might give a little more room to pure fighter types against EK's, clerics, and the like.
Finally, it would be very nice if the monsters that are currently erroneously immune to disarm were updated. The goblins are the worst example, but there are others like hagspawn, minotaurs, etc. that wield weapons and mysteriously cannot be effected by the feat.
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Post by eldur(retired) on Feb 18, 2009 19:16:06 GMT -5
Actually, I think I've removed Disarm from most (all?) of the monsters. We typically don't allow players to disarm npc's because of the ground clutter it causes, so I didn't think it fair for the npc's to disarm players.
The npc's do have lives to live, and they prefer to live them in a lag free environment, so I only thought it fair to keep the ground clear of hard earned player weapons.
If they are still disarming weapons from players, let me know and I'll have a little chat with them.
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