Diplomacie, Bluff, Intimidate

[adzling]

Jan 13, 2009 15:33:19 GMT -5 Zealote said:

Jan 13, 2009 15:28:12 GMT -5 adzling said:

well it always depends upon circumstance zealote.

however in the instance mentioned above if i were the blackguard in question you could roll 1000 and you wouldnt get me to follow your paladin into the city.
no matter how nicely you asked or how persuasive you arguments as that is akin to "hi matey, let's go sit in this electric chair shall we? It's fine really, nice electric chair it won't hurt you."

The argument must follow the roll. The argument was to come peacefully, that a fight was not necessary since all it would happen was the questioning. Not death and no trial threats were made. Which is why I said that the argument must be made within reason.
Not to accept the fact that you fail to resist a racional argument with a good and succesful dimplomacy roll is bad RP. Just like not being scared of a huge intimidation roll and the threat of death made by a huge half-orc with an axe.

PS edit: Both your arguments were bad examples of bluff rolls.

Well if the paladin wasn't going to do something as the RESULT of the questioning regarding the skeleton summoning then why would he bother questioning him in town in the first place?
Any rational person would infer that a paladin wishing to take a blackgaurd into town to question him about summoning a skeleton means to do something beyond the questioning.
Likely something that involves at the least loss of freedom and most likely *much* worse.
Otherwise why not just question him on the spot right there and then?

This is NOT the same imho as a huge orc threatening someone. If my current character ran into a powerful looking orc brandishing an axe i wouldn't force him to make an intimidation roll, i would just ACT intimidated as it's obvious the brute could rip me limb from limb.
If I was in my epics i'd probably laugh at him, regardless of any intimidation roll he might make. Which is exactly what an epic drow mage would do.

No rolls needed.

Now as to whether my prior examples are bluffs or not I take bluff to mean almost any lie.
Hence "please mr mage let me hold your staff for a minute I PROMISE i'll give it back".

While diplomacy I take to mean using rational argument (and subtle persuasion) to convince someone of your position.

Both of which I feel are *much* better done using our innate skills as players when confronted with another player.

I say for the most part keep the rolls for npcs and use your wits against pcs (of course there are exceptions to everything).

Anyhoo this is how i play.

Make it convincing RP and i'll go along with it.
Pull some unconvincing rational out of your back-pocket and then make an uber dice roll and i'll just laugh at you and walk off

As in:
Bluffer: "look! that chasm has an invisible bridge over it on the other side of which there is an unguarded dragon's hoard!"
*rolls 100*
Bluffee: "really?"
*rolls 1*
"Oh ok then"
*Player walks off cliff to his death*

Not happening to me, sorry ;-)

[lorgin2003]

well, according to the DMG, diplomacy is countered by diplomacy, intimidate it countered by (1d20 + the target's character level + the target's wisdom bonus + the target's modifiers on saves vs fear)

bluff is countered by sense motive, but since that doesn't exist in the game, i would think that it's counter would depend on the situation. though, a level+int check seems like it would work alright.

[DM Sir Carnifex]

I have always used spot, listen, or bluff against bluff rolls (until today when someone said I needed to use will and I did so without really thinking it over).

Now spot obviously wouldn't work for sure in some cases. If the person is wearing a full helmet, or it is night without any nearby lights, or the person has a mask, obviously there's no question about whether spot should be used or not.

Listen is something I'd use more if the person is not seen, or the face cannot be seen.

Bluff, of course, can be used at all times.

I think that PCs with different skills should be able to counter die rolls in various ways. Obviously a person who does the first roll (be in bluff, diplomacy, or something else) generally uses what he is best at. Think of spot as more of an observation skill rather than something used to see a deer in the woods.

Note: As Zeal said, skill rolls should always be countered with skill rolls. To use stat or save rolls against it is not fair because those will generally be lower. I generally think of save rolls as something used not to counter another roll, but for use in DM events. Stat rolls can be used to counter stat rolls (someone tries to snatch an object with DEX, you counter with DEX).

[Zealote]

Jan 13, 2009 18:43:49 GMT -5 DM Sir Carnifex said:

I think that PCs with different skills should be able to counter die rolls in various ways. Obviously a person who does the first roll (be in bluff, diplomacy, or something else) generally uses what he is best at. Think of spot as more of an observation skill rather than something used to see a deer in the woods.

Precisely the reason for my first post. That list is not like a guideline, but rather an oportunity to encourage RP. That means great variety of responses, based on which skill you choose to counter the first roll. If you had to use the same skill, it wouldnt be possible all the time. But with those different skills to counter, you can do more stuff with the same situation. Richer RP and more fun.

[DM blessedone]

Even in the separate rule set's like 'Song and Silence' / 'Tome and Blood' and so on...they have a list of skills and 'new' uses for those skills. There is a variety of uses for each skill and a variety of counters depending on each situation for each one. I personally just like to RP it out unless the end game does make a difference....even then, it's just a game and I am here for the RP fun of it all...*as he tries to flip his daggers in a fancy manner* (Dex. check= 9) *he drops one and blushes*

[lorgin2003]

Jan 13, 2009 18:43:49 GMT -5 DM Sir Carnifex said:

Note: As Zeal said, skill rolls should always be countered with skill rolls. To use stat or save rolls against it is not fair because those will generally be lower. I generally think of save rolls as something used not to counter another roll, but for use in DM events. Stat rolls can be used to counter stat rolls (someone tries to snatch an object with DEX, you counter with DEX).

the main reason that the ability checks are so low is because the target's level isn't added to it. if the level was added to it, it would basically be the maximum skill points that character could have in a skill minus 3.