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Post by dyndrilliac on Nov 18, 2008 23:21:11 GMT -5
*sighs* Once again, more assumptions. How about we talk about this IG as discussed via PM so we clear everything up? I was on all evening today as agreed upon... That wasn't a jab at you Cephas, and I got on around 10pm EST and was on for about half an hour and didn't see you. I will get on again. Zealote: I'm not trying to be argumentative, I just feel that there are exceptions to the preconceived standards that everyone here seems to be used to.
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Post by DM Sir Carnifex on Nov 18, 2008 23:31:54 GMT -5
*sigh*
To put it simply, if a person does not RP the way that *you* believe they should, don't say that it's bad RP. Only the person playing the character can tell what the reaction to a certain situation will be.
And with that, I suggest we get back to the topic of this thread, which is to have suggestions for good RP, and not to debate on whether a certain situation was played well or not (that could go on forever and we'd never get anywhere). So, to be on topic, here's one suggestion I'll throw on the end of the list:
---
Do not make your characters static -- always the same from the time you make them until the time you quit playing them. Allow them to be affected by the actions of others and events that occur.
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Post by dyndrilliac on Nov 19, 2008 0:20:47 GMT -5
I'm sorry, I was under the impression that the term "suggestion" by definition involves voicing one's opinions as to how someone else should act. I specifically mentioned that while the decisions are ultimately up to the character, it is failing to consider all possible options that I would have to say is bad RP (which would fall into your suggestion regarding characters remaining static).
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atlas
Active Member
Posts: 177
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Post by atlas on Nov 19, 2008 0:22:40 GMT -5
Theres another thing that happens if you accept Savevok or Viconia or Edwin or any of the evil NPC's into your party, and that is your reputation takes a hit. I never said that good and evil allying in some greater threat situation was not possible i just said it is an indecent act for a good guy to ally with a bad guy. It wont automatically make him evil but he would take a hit to his alignment. I should add something else here other than continuing the debate so..
If i read correctly this is the OFFICIAL DnD 3.5 rules for good VS evil and the nine alignments.
Good vs. Evil
Good characters and creatures protect innocent life. Evil characters and creatures debase or destroy innocent life, whether for fun or profit. “Good” implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others. “Evil” implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master. People who are neutral with respect to good and evil have compunctions against killing the innocent but lack the commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others. Neutral people are committed to others by personal relationships. A neutral person may sacrifice himself to protect his family or even his homeland, but he would not do so for strangers who are not related to him. Being good or evil can be a conscious choice, as with the paladin who attempts to live up to her ideals or the evil cleric who causes pain and terror to emulate his god. For most people, though, being good or evil is an attitude that one recognizes but does not choose. Being neutral between good and evil usually represents a lack of commitment one way or the other, but for some it represents a positive commitment to a balanced view. While acknowledging that good and evil are objective states, not just opinions, these folk maintain that a balance between the two is the proper place for people, or at least for them. Animals and other creatures incapable of moral action are neutral rather than good or evil. Even deadly vipers and tigers that eat people are neutral because they lack the capacity for morally right or wrong behavior.
[edit]Law vs. Chaos Lawful characters tell the truth, keep their word, respect authority, honor tradition, and judge those who fall short of their duties. Chaotic characters follow their consciences, resent being told what to do, favor new ideas over tradition, and do what they promise if they feel like it. “Law” implies honor, trustworthiness, obedience to authority, and reliability. On the downside, lawfulness can include close-mindedness, reactionary adherence to tradition, judgmentalness, and a lack of adaptability. Those who consciously promote lawfulness say that only lawful behavior creates a society in which people can depend on each other and make the right decisions in full confidence that others will act as they should. “Chaos” implies freedom, adaptability, and flexibility. On the downside, chaos can include recklessness, resentment toward legitimate authority, arbitrary actions, and irresponsibility. Those who promote chaotic behavior say that only unfettered personal freedom allows people to express themselves fully and lets society benefit from the potential that its individuals have within them. People who are neutral with respect to law and chaos have a normal respect for authority and feel neither a compulsion to obey nor to rebel. They are honest, but can be tempted into lying or deceiving others. Devotion to law or chaos may be a conscious choice, but more often it is a personality trait that is recognized rather than being chosen. Neutrality with respect to law and chaos is usually simply a middle state, a state of not feeling compelled toward one side or the other. Some few neutrals, however, espouse neutrality as superior to law or chaos, regarding each as an extreme with its own blind spots and drawbacks. Animals and other creatures incapable of moral action are neutral. Dogs may be obedient and cats free-spirited, but they do not have the moral capacity to be truly lawful or chaotic.
[edit]The Nine Alignments Nine distinct alignments define all the combinations of law vs. chaos and good vs. evil. Each description depicts the typical character of that alignment. Remember that individuals vary from this norm, and that a given character may act more or less in accord with her alignment from day to day. Use these descriptions as guidelines, not as scripts. The first six alignments, lawful good through chaotic neutral, are the standard alignments for player characters. The three evil alignments are for monsters and villains.
[edit]Lawful Good, “Crusader” A lawful good character acts as a good person is expected or required to act. She combines a commitment to oppose evil with the discipline to fight relentlessly. She tells the truth, keeps her word, helps those in need, and speaks out against injustice. A lawful good character hates to see the guilty go unpunished. Alhandra, a paladin who fights evil without mercy and who protects the innocent without hesitation, is lawful good. Lawful good is the best alignment you can be because it combines honor and compassion.
[edit]Neutral Good, “Benefactor” A neutral good character does the best that a good person can do. He is devoted to helping others. He works with kings and magistrates but does not feel beholden to them. Jozan, a cleric who helps others according to their needs, is neutral good. The common phrase for neutral good is “true good.” Neutral good is the best alignment you can be because it means doing what is good without bias toward or against order.
[edit]Chaotic Good, “Rebel” A chaotic good character acts as his conscience directs him with little regard for what others expect of him. He makes his own way, but he’s kind and benevolent. He believes in goodness and right but has little use for laws and regulations. He hates it when people try to intimidate others and tell them what to do. He follows his own moral compass, which, although good, may not agree with that of society. Soveliss, a ranger who waylays the evil baron’s tax collectors, is chaotic good. Chaotic good is the best alignment you can be because it combines a good heart with a free spirit.
[edit]Lawful Neutral, “Judge” A lawful neutral character acts as law, tradition, or a personal code directs her. Order and organization are paramount to her. She may believe in personal order and live by a code or standard, or she may believe in order for all and favor a strong, organized government. Ember, a monk who follows her discipline without being swayed by the demands of those in need nor by the temptations of evil, is lawful neutral. The common phrase for lawful neutral is “true lawful.” Lawful neutral is the best alignment you can be because it means you are reliable and honorable without being a zealot.
[edit]Neutral, “Undecided” A neutral character does what seems to be a good idea. She doesn’t feel strongly one way or the other when it comes to good vs. evil or law vs. chaos. Most neutrality is a lack of conviction or bias rather than a commitment to neutrality. Such a character thinks of good as better than evil. After all, she would rather have good neighbors and rulers than evil ones. Still, she’s not personally committed to upholding good in any abstract or universal way. Mialee, a wizard who devotes herself to her art and is bored by the semantics of moral debate, is neutral. Some neutral characters, on the other hand, commit themselves philosophically to neutrality. They see good, evil, law, and chaos as prejudices and dangerous extremes. They advocate the middle way of neutrality as the best, most balanced road in the long run. The common phrase for neutral is “true neutral.” Neutral is the best alignment you can be because it means you act naturally, without prejudice or compulsion.
[edit]Chaotic Neutral, “Free Spirit” A chaotic neutral character follows his whims. He is an individualist first and last. He values his own liberty but doesn’t strive to protect others’ freedom. He avoids authority, resents restrictions, and challenges traditions. The chaotic neutral character does not intentionally disrupt organizations as part of a campaign of anarchy. To do so, he would have to be motivated either by good (and a desire to liberate others) or evil (and a desire to make those different from himself suffer). Devis, a bard who wanders the land living by his wits, is chaotic neutral. The common phrase for chaotic neutral is “true chaotic.” Remember that the chaotic neutral character may be unpredictable, but his behavior is not totally random. He is not as likely to jump off a bridge as to cross it. Chaotic neutral is the best alignment you can be because it represents true freedom both from society’s restrictions and from a do-gooder’s zeal.
[edit]Lawful Evil, “Dominator” A lawful evil villain methodically takes what he wants within the limits of his code of conduct without regard to whom it hurts. He cares about tradition, loyalty, and order, but not about freedom, dignity, or life. He plays by the rules, but without mercy or compassion. He is comfortable in a hierarchy and would like to rule, but he is willing to serve. He condemns others not according to their actions but according to race, religion, homeland, or social rank. He is loath to break laws or promises. This reluctance is partly because of his nature and partly because he depends on order to protect himself from those who oppose him on moral grounds. Some lawful evil villains have particular taboos, such as not killing in cold blood (but having underlings do it) or not letting children come to harm (if it can be helped). They imagine that these compunctions put them above unprincipled villains. The scheming baron who expands his power and exploits his people is lawful evil. Some lawful evil people and creatures are committed to evil with a zeal like that of a crusader committed to good. Beyond being willing to hurt others for their own ends, they take pleasure in spreading evil as an end unto itself. They may also see doing evil as part of a duty to an evil deity or master. Lawful evil is sometimes called “diabolical” because devils are the epitome of lawful evil. Lawful evil is the most dangerous alignment because it represents methodical, intentional, and frequently successful evil.
[edit]Neutral Evil, “Malefactor” A neutral evil villain does whatever she can get away with. She is out for herself, pure and simple. She sheds no tears for those she kills, whether for profit, sport, or convenience. She has no love of order and holds no illusion that following laws, traditions, or codes would make her any better or more noble. On the other hand, she doesn’t have the restless nature or love of conflict that a chaotic evil villain has. The criminal who robs and murders to get what she wants is neutral evil. Some neutral evil villains hold up evil as an ideal, committing evil for its own sake. Most often, such villains are devoted to evil deities or secret societies. The common phrase for neutral evil is “true evil.” Neutral evil is the most dangerous alignment because it represents pure evil without honor and without variation.
[edit]Chaotic Evil, “Destroyer” A chaotic evil character does whatever his greed, hatred, and lust for destruction drive him to do. He is hot-tempered, vicious, arbitrarily violent, and unpredictable. If simply out for whatever he can get, he is ruthless and brutal. If he is committed to the spread of evil and chaos, he is even worse. Thankfully, his plans are haphazard, and any groups he joins or forms are poorly organized. Typically, chaotic evil people can only be made to work together by force, and their leader lasts only as long as he can thwart attempts to topple or assassinate him. The demented sorcerer pursuing mad schemes of vengeance and havoc is chaotic evil. Chaotic evil is sometimes called “demonic” because demons are the epitome of chaotic evil. Chaotic evil is the most dangerous alignment because it represents the destruction not only of beauty and life but of the order on which beauty and life depend.
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Post by Tiefling on Nov 19, 2008 9:08:20 GMT -5
Try to picture this: - Hi, my name is Ravnir, im one sadistic evil man, but i would like to join you in your hunt today. Can i? - Well of course evil man! Come along. But you must take the first watch after nightfall, im rather lazy and sleep like a turtle. Will you watch my unprotected body against the OTHER evil that runs around in the night? - You got it dude! Like i said, im evil, but im on vacation today, so ill guard you while you sleep..........I know that sound very realistic to some guys, but i assure you....its not. So wouldnt be just better if the evil guy just kept that information a secret? ;D Well t-t-t-t-thas all for today folks. -Zeal PS: Any tips you want to add just post it, or PM me about it. Yep. That's me, indeed it is. I always forgot to write the " *Being sarcastic* ", or " *Being ironic* "- thankfully people are smart enough to spot them nonetheless. :] 1) Done... My character really wants to go to Icewind Dale, if you're from around there, she'll ask ton of silly questions from your character. As well, often wondering about the strange names you got. 2) Done... My character always suspects others as bandits when outside of Gate. 3) Done... I usually get poked when I try to sleep in the middle of the bridge. 4) Done... You're not bandits, eh? Well, how about we join in forces and aim towards the pointless effort of thwarting banditry on the Sword Coast? I suppose my blade hand as yours could use some practise. So, shall we plunge into this cave and gut, impale, and literally slaughter with our hearts content those deemed to be on the “wrong side of the law”? - People tend to say yes. (BTW, my character doesn’t really like killing, but she will if she has to. See the Neutral Evil quote, which was posted by Atlas) Thus; I deem myself as; th p3rf3ct rl-pl4y4h.
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Post by Zealote on Nov 19, 2008 10:15:00 GMT -5
*sigh* To put it simply, if a person does not RP the way that *you* believe they should, don't say that it's bad RP. Only the person playing the character can tell what the reaction to a certain situation will be. And with that, I suggest we get back to the topic of this thread, which is to have suggestions for good RP, and not to debate on whether a certain situation was played well or not (that could go on forever and we'd never get anywhere). So, to be on topic, here's one suggestion I'll throw on the end of the list: --- Do not make your characters static -- always the same from the time you make them until the time you quit playing them. Allow them to be affected by the actions of others and events that occur. Now thats a tip. Have some karma for that mate.
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Post by DM Cephas on Nov 19, 2008 11:09:02 GMT -5
(Trying to derail the conversation back to "tips" from "debates"...)
1) Don't force your PC to join an event s/he would not normally do just because it's a DM event. (e.g. save some cleric if you have a dislike for clergy, go on a really shady mission if you're lawful good, etc.) If you're secretly going to oppose it later on, that's different of course (if you're going to do this, I'd recommend letting the DM know --- secretly). Some DM's actually give XP to PC's that roleplay consistently by walking away. 2) Pick languages that your PC would actually have. (e.g. Why would Billy the average woodsman ranger know abyssal or celestial?) 3) If you ever "die" from PvP battle or a DM event, don't just jump up and act as if nothing happened. The health bar may be full but it's cool when people actually RP waking up from unconsciousness or from near-death. 4) Don't walk into traps just because you have "enough" hit points. Try to avoid it first like your PC normally would. Some DM's may stack traps to add to the mystery of it all. Or some may even use the traps to trigger the spawning of more monsters (i.e. they become alerted)
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Post by Tiefling on Nov 19, 2008 14:05:00 GMT -5
1) Read what you write, especially if you write few paragraphs of text in an instant. You may have had the best thing to say ever, but some crucial part may have dissappeared between your brain and fingers. Altough the results are at times fun to read.
2) If your character has something special in their appearance, write in the biography slot. This way when people "Examine you" they will for example see that your character might have a smile burned on their face. I didn't do this, and it sucks, I have to tell that to all the new people I meet. Example: Hiya. ////(Long explanation about scars.)
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Post by loudent2 on Nov 19, 2008 16:13:18 GMT -5
I specifically mentioned that while the decisions are ultimately up to the character, it is failing to consider all possible options that I would have to say is bad RP (which would fall into your suggestion regarding characters remaining static). This doesn't track for me. At worst, a good character not considering help from an evil one could be considered character flaw (in the traditional sense) and character flaws are often the focal point of the best RP I've seen. Some of the most interesting characters I've seen in books and movies often took the road less travelled (harder, less convenient) even while my pragmatic self kept thinking: "Are you crazy?" So while you as a person may think it's silly, it is still Good RP (IMO) In fact, I see a lot of potential here. Perhaps your evil character learns to soften his touch or at least "mask" his evil better), perhaps over time your "evil" character can demonstrate that, although competely devoid of empathy, he still adheres to a code of honor that will lead to a grudging respect. (remember, you can't tell others to do things, if you want this to happen you have to RP your actions) This is the good stuff man.
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Post by DM Cephas on Nov 25, 2008 11:24:57 GMT -5
Due to the the lack of Permadeath...
When fighting EPCs (Evil Player) 1) If you win in PvP versus an EPC, consider just leaving him/her for dead. No need to drag someone to the Fists for arrest. After all, do you drag every NPC mob body to the Fists for arrest? (Responsible and good-RP'ing) EPCs add to the world but need an RP-reason to go on. Consider treating him/her to be "just another mob". 2) On a similar note and using the same logic, no need to de-mask everyone ever EPC you beat.
If you're an EPC, the "evil" version of the above can apply. Also... 3) If you're playing an anti-social EPC and you give someone the cold shower or say something mean, consider giving that person a private tell something to the effect of: "Nothing personal. My PC doesn't like elves." It relays that even though your PC may be a jerk, you the player aren't.
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Post by caveman282 on Nov 25, 2008 11:43:50 GMT -5
What I usually do after I attacked and killed someone. I will do just that leave em for dead specially if its a well known pc. I dont check to see if they are fully dead. The down side to that will be if they live then they will remember what happened to the.
Also another thing I've done with both good and evil chars is. If I kill/ torture somone. After the RP is done I will let the person know that they were just some random person like random elf is found dead on the side of the road. This way it lets their PC keep living alive but also lets the person get in on some rp.
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Post by DM blessedone on Nov 25, 2008 12:37:50 GMT -5
....consider giving that person a private tell something to the effect of: "Nothing personal. My PC doesn't like elves." It relays that even though your PC may be a jerk, you the player aren't. I actually like this idea a bit. I mean, sure we all know that we are here for RP and such, but sometimes some people take it personal or to heart that they have just been treated that way. I also like the idea of recieving a tell, "PVP OK?" prior to killing. The hurdle to overcome with this is when someone Metagames.....It happens. I for one know that since Aiden is a member of the Fist, he is a target of many who do not like them. I got here by RPing my PC and I do not expect every single Joe out there to send a Tell saying, "I'm bout to kick your arse...." but, if you do attack Aiden and he wins, expect to be taken in. If you started the RP do not just suddenly stop it just because you got served. I will not do that and expect the same respect. (Dire emergencies are understood now...I ain't no RP Nazis here ) I have seen where an attack took place before and seen them beat and then the "GAME MECHANICS" kick in......Still, I like this idea and will NOT use that info to start buffing up and preapre for a fight that was not even on my PC's mind when I was just standing there and did not see that assassin sneaking up behind me.......which has happened before! *as a clanking sound can be heard and at his feet lays a charm in the shape of a dagger* Anywho, everyone RP's in a different manner and it should be all in good fun. If your not having fun, then something might have gone wrong? ~GAME ON~
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Post by DM mithari on Nov 25, 2008 17:11:13 GMT -5
Hi. First time on the server, felt I should chip in as I intend to play an evil character here as soon as I pick up my SoZ copy from the FLGS (Hellfire Warlock, yay!). I don't really intend to start a lengthy debate or anything, just add what I believe is a decent way to interpret alignment, allowing functional evil characters that don't have to be murderous, hateful shells of formerly (demi)human beings. Something one should remember even when dealing with objective fantasy like D&D is with its alignment is that, being evil by alignment is most likely not a crime in itself. Sure, you might be more liable to do something unsavory, but that doesn't mean that followers of good deities/authorities have an automatic smiting right from their superiors. If you commit no crime, it doesn't matter if you're Chaotic Evil and a murderous psychopath at heart; society can not and will not punish you until you actually do something wrong (or can be proven that you are planning to do something wrong). As such, I believe that on a larger scale your Law/Chaos alignment axis is what will determine how likely you are to run into problems with a society's laws and justice system, much more than Good/Evil. That might sound obvious, but sometimes it's easy for people to forget that and automatically bunch up evil with crime and adherence to law and order with good (on a related note, the official campaigns are very frequent offenders). Examples: A Lawful Evil character is extremely likely to obey laws that ban things he wants to do to further his power, out of fear for punishment or because he depends on the laws to protect his shady business. A Chaotic Good character can easily break a law that would get him in trouble if his personal view of right and wrong tells him that something wrong is taking place even within the laws of a society. When trying to explain this to my players (yes, I'm a DMing PnP geek at heart, go ahead and laugh ), I usually use slavery as a way to underline this. It might certainly be legal in parts of the Realms, but it's probably evil nonetheless. Thay is one of the obvious offenders here. The point that I'm trying so laboriously to get to is, as I wrote above, that being evil by alignment does not automatically make you a criminal. It certainly makes you selfish and the kind of person that will look out for your own hide first and foremost, but not a criminal by default. Evil within legal limits is still evil and still legal. Nice little circular argument, eh? There's also the thing that the average evil citizen is probably unlikely to think of himself as "evil", and as such is unlikely to run around proclaiming their evil nature to everyone they meet in the first place. This realization might strike them when they first begin dealing with devils or demons, and see how similar they might be in outlook and methods to something that is so indisputably evil. Of course, then there's the case of blackguards, fanatical priests and devotees of murderous deities, which are a different brand of evil altogether. They probably *do* know they're evil in the grand cosmological scheme of things, and relish it fully. They quite likely believe that evil is the best way to go, justified by their own myriad of arguments, be they carefully constructed or philosophical stick houses.
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Post by DM Sir Carnifex on Nov 26, 2008 0:12:03 GMT -5
Very good points, Mithari. Have a karma point!
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Post by DM mithari on Nov 26, 2008 7:13:01 GMT -5
;D When trying to go to sleep after writing the above... Below... Whatever it turns out to be, I thought of a few more things. People that easily see others' arguments will probably be able to determine which alignment I usually play after this as well... Just as evil doesn't automagically make you a criminal, Lawful doesn't necessitate you to agree with all laws of a society. The one thing that lawfulness is certain to mean is the adherence to *some* sort of code or legal framework. When that code conflicts with the society the person is currently living in, then you get a Lawful criminal. A thieves' guild with a standard hierarchy is good example here. While the lower ranking thugs may indeed be (Lawful/Neutral/Chaotic) Evil criminals, the leaders will most likely be Lawful or Neutral Evil, depending on the rules they set up to ensure the thugs below don't get any funny ideas. Going with the criminals in the OC is a very good example of how such a hierarchy exists and is put under internal stress from the Law/Chaos divide between two leaders (Axle and Moire). By extension, this applies to all alignments. Chaotic people don't automatically revolt against ruling powers, if those powers match their own moral (Good/Evil) alignment. Good people might avoid getting involved when others get hurt, depending on their ethical alignment (Lawful/Chaotic); but he will feel bad about it afterward. A problem with interpreting alignment this way is that it will almost inevitably cause a tangled mess for those that have the job of adjudicating alignment and its shifts. Saying all criminals are chaotic (breaking laws) evil (doing bad things) is an easy way out, but I feel it's a bit of a cop-out, since when you combine that with the chaotic evil description - specifically "Typically, chaotic evil people can only be made to work together by force, and their leader lasts only as long as he can thwart attempts to topple or assassinate him." - you get a situation where you will have a very hard time justifying the presence of large, powerful and stable criminal organizations, such as the Shadow Thieves. Unfortunately there's no easy solution. The way I've been handling this without *too* much hassle is to use a few basic questions, which I check my character against each time he/she does something. - Is the character consistent in their actions, with respect to a certain code or set of laws? If yes, he's probably Lawful. If no, he's probably Chaotic. - Who has the character benefited the most with their actions? If he has tried to benefit the largest amount of people with each action, he's probably Good. If he's tried to benefit the most amount of people, but been unwilling to do so if it would put himself or his friends at a disadvantage, he's probably Neutral. If he's tried to benefit only himself and perhaps his very closest associates, he's probably Evil. - Why has the character done things the way he's done them? The possible reasons are too many to even form a basic framework of answers, requiring instead to look at the good/evil and lawful/chaotic descriptions. This is, however, the most critical part when you want a character that can work in a group of good characters. Even neutral people work solely for money sometimes. Perhaps traveling with these do-gooder schmucks is a good way to make sure people are indebted to you... Anyway. This wordy, so-far-characterless upstart will stop ranting and go get his game instead now. Thank you for reading and considering my opinion, and see you online!
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