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Post by DM Cephas on Oct 12, 2008 10:29:03 GMT -5
What are your thoughts on epic level mobs?
PS: Sorry for misspelling "ceiling" in the poll above.
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lorgin2003
Senior Member
Dyn-o-miiiiite!!!
Posts: 373
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Post by lorgin2003 on Oct 12, 2008 15:07:54 GMT -5
i dunno.
i don't have any epic level characters yet.
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Post by mugsyman on Oct 12, 2008 18:10:54 GMT -5
May not be the most popular, but I would vote to keep players at max lvl 15, past 15 could be granted by DM as a result of rp. It is just 1 vote.
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Post by Iceshard on Oct 12, 2008 20:21:48 GMT -5
Epic levels I think should be DM granted only. Once you are level 20 your powerful enough, going beyond that is to monty hall for me.. almost pointless to hold any events or spawn monsters for those players. -Ice
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Post by whenwizardswar on Oct 12, 2008 23:44:15 GMT -5
Epic levels I think should be DM granted only. Once you are level 20 your powerful enough, going beyond that is to monty hall for me.. almost pointless to hold any events or spawn monsters for those players. -Ice Yes, level 21 plus should come with responsabilitys and should be earned through other means then just pointing and clicking. Look at all the great epic levels in the realms, they certainly didnt get it just by killing...well most of them any way heh. If we were hardcore yes, i would push for approval to move past level 21, but we arnt so we wont heh.
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davidb
Senior Member
Posts: 300
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Post by davidb on Oct 13, 2008 2:35:23 GMT -5
I agree with what has been replied so far, keep level under 20, in order to advance further you need DM approval, and shouldn't be much over 20 anyways...
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atlas
Active Member
Posts: 177
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Post by atlas on Oct 13, 2008 3:30:12 GMT -5
The game is designed for you to eventualy be able to get to the maximum level. If you never get to level 30 then you will always feel like you're missing out. This server isnt about Elminster and Halaster and other demi god npc's, its about the players characters, they should have just as much chance to become epic, afterall who wants to always be playing second fiddle to someone else?
There are epic monsters in Mask Of The Betrayer that could be used as templates and adjusted here and there to fit the server.
My character is level 22, he can hit moderatly hard with improved power attack but he is by no means invincible. I earned those 22 levels and would feel robbed if i was busted down to level 15 or 19 or 20.
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Post by Zealote on Oct 13, 2008 3:47:32 GMT -5
I agree with what has been replied so far, keep level under 20, in order to advance further you need DM approval, and shouldn't be much over 20 anyways... We have plenty over 20. All you need is the right spell.
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davidb
Senior Member
Posts: 300
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Post by davidb on Oct 13, 2008 4:15:06 GMT -5
The game is designed for you to eventualy be able to get to the maximum level. If you never get to level 30 then you will always feel like you're missing out. This server isnt about Elminster and Halaster and other demi god npc's, its about the players characters, they should have just as much chance to become epic, afterall who wants to always be playing second fiddle to someone else? There are epic monsters in Mask Of The Betrayer that could be used as templates and adjusted here and there to fit the server. My character is level 22, he can hit moderatly hard with improved power attack but he is by no means invincible. I earned those 22 levels and would feel robbed if i was busted down to level 15 or 19 or 20. I don't think anyone should be deleveled, and 22 is not too overpowered, on most classes. The problem is, this system is really designed for 20 levels, and those extra 10 or 20 above it is just a botched job, a mindless add-on without balance or gameplay at all. I don't know about the rest of you, but really I found no challenge in any high level battle in NWN or NWN2 official content, ever, and almost always I play melee PCs. The real deal is in the low and medium levels, when you really have to be careful and plan your fights or die. Those levels are the one truly gauged for gameplay, and each level really makes a difference. Think that the race for levels really gets you nowhere. There's always a limit, be it 20, 30 or 40, so people will still complain, feel bored when they hit the top, etc. Also, when everybody is "epic", it's no longer special being "epic". I think that leveling over 20 should require you to be a real hero, right now you can farm your way up... where's the epic in that?
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atlas
Active Member
Posts: 177
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Post by atlas on Oct 13, 2008 5:14:21 GMT -5
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davidb
Senior Member
Posts: 300
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Post by davidb on Oct 13, 2008 6:42:22 GMT -5
We will have to agree to disagree then, I am afraid.
DnD has never had balance between classes. However, those small differences become bigger, and bigger, and bigger as you scale up the system in levels.
If we're in a group at level 7, in a dangerous dungeon, another level 7 guy will probably be a good adition to a group, regardless of class. However, at high levels, the difference in group utility and efficience grows more and more. Adding a lvl 20 wizard to a group is nothing close to adding a lvl 20 paladin. Maybe you agree on that? Then why it is not desirable to stay as close to level 7 as you can?
The developers find much harder to balance difficulty for a level 30 dungeon, because of this. It will take them much longer, and the final result won't be much balanced after all.
Obviously you are only "high" or "low" level within a context. Being level 22, you are high level in this PW, because you can play in all the zones. As long as you're experiencing new content, and finding new challenges as you level, who cares if you're 15 or 30? I understand your current problem, you have little places to go now, as you've reached the "top". Well, that's going to happen at some point, be it 22 or 30.
In the end, it's all about the level progression the developers have in mind. This progression works in steps. Example:
Lvl 1-3 : you have zones A, B, or if you're very brave or grouped, C or D Lvl 4-7 : you have C, D, and maybe in groups or for true heros, E or F ...
etc.
So in the end you have X steps, in each of them the character should have the choice to go to areas of low risk and low reward, or maybe push things a bit and advance faster and with more rewards. There should be enough zones in each step so PCs don't spend too much time on the same zone. Another point is, not having too large steps, or some zones will get crowded. My example above, i.e., has too big steps.
Currently the stair has steps up to lvl 22. Some of the steps need work, rebalance, detail, etc. Given that designing steps for epic levels is harder to balance, and that much less people will use them, would you rather not put all effort in working in the current steps?
Also bear in mind this PW is trying to get new players, so the emphasys in developing epic zones would add nothing to that. The world would be fatter, not greater.
Maybe there will be a time when adding up to 30 will be the most wise option. My 2 cents is, not yet. But again I am only level 11 (and I am leveling as slow as I can), so maybe I don't have enough perspective. As soon as I get bored for whatever reasons with Talahir, I will play more with other toons, so, you see, low level zones are enjoyable by anyone really.
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davidb
Senior Member
Posts: 300
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Post by davidb on Oct 13, 2008 8:25:50 GMT -5
The reason the campaign is so easy is because you have access to all the most powerful legendary weapons and whatnot in the game and you hang out with immortal demi gods like Okku. You could make a Wizard with 8 intelligence and still finish Mask Of The Betrayer up to the last boss easily. Being a Wizard with no spells would be a bit of a problem when you're on your own against the end boss though. Being a Wizard with 8 int in the duel with Lorne would be a bit hard aswell. Specifically on this, let me tell you that I don't feel the companions are the reason. In theory enemies are scaled up the same way. The problem is, as I said, over 20, there is no balance. Level 9 spells already allowed you to finish a battle with a single casting. Epic spells are even worse, as you are allowed to rest all the time, just turn everybody into a chicken and rest again. Or Hellball them. High level spells are battle finishers. On low levels, you can cast fireball, the enemies can cast fireball, all is OK. On epic levels, where's the fun on seeing who casts first. Because if you cast first, you cast last too. Meanwhile, paladins and barbarians clap their hands and cheer the casters.
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Post by DEV Jlf2n on Oct 13, 2008 9:52:55 GMT -5
We have more high level mobs in the works. We just need more areas and caves for them mainly. We also will balance out the Frost giants etc to make them fall more into the proper flowing CR range as well. For now those are just set that high to have something really hard you need to group for.
There will be, in the end, epic level raid mobs that the players don't need DMs for. For example I am currently working on a White Dragon cave for the Speartop area of the Cloudpeaks that will house an ancient White Dragon with a CR of maybe 50. The goal for him will be to require a large group of players to kill him.
As for grind mobs though you'll probably never see them in the 25-30 range. Those levels will come mostly from DM events.
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Post by Jadeite Feyern on Oct 13, 2008 10:28:53 GMT -5
Rubbish. When I play I might be lucky and get a DM for one hour MAX! Besides today, my last event was one month ago! No you don't. No DM's, give me mobs. No mobs, give DM's with events. Neither of these = no more owl!
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Bahlzeron
Member
sometimes it is better to keep ones mouth shut and seem a fool, than open it and remove all doubt
Posts: 43
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Post by Bahlzeron on Oct 13, 2008 11:58:12 GMT -5
Ditto here.. I dont really get to get on during "peak" hours, and extremely rarely see a DM, in fact I think I have yet to spend any amount of time on while an event is runnin . It's just the hours I keep, and I know that.. but those similar to me shouldn't be left holdin' the short end of the stick because of the hours we are available.
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